Author Topic: PBP 2019 - Notes to self  (Read 7505 times)

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #100 on: September 13, 2019, 01:39:33 pm »
I've looked at all my control times and the control closing times for people on the 80h schedule.

Time limit is 80 hours for 1200km, so average speed is 15kmh. at no control was my average speed below 15kmh. I finished in 79hours 20. However if I had been on the 80hr schedule I would have been officially out of time at 6 controls, due to the front loading.

Is this flushing out those not likely to finish or causing them not to finish? As people stop due to being out of time or dont sleep as much as they need to due to the pressure of making the next control.

the earlier start would have allowed one extra control before sleeping (Brest instead of Carhaix (1) and Fougeres instead of Tintiniac), and in fairness I woukd only have been out by a few minutes at carhaix (2), and loudeac, but that still leaves villaines and mortagnes where I was significantly late, and of course if I had been the required 3 hours earlier at Villaines I would probably have gone on to finish 3 hours earlier.

So the only way to use all the time is a series of small naps or no sleep.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #101 on: September 13, 2019, 01:48:13 pm »
The brevet card contained the control opening and closing times for the first group in your wave. So for instance if you were in the 90hr wave, the brevet card showed you the control opening and closing times for the 17:15 start. So you'd have to add on the difference between your start time and 17:15 to get the control closing times for your group.  That was much easier to do on the Saturday (putting the results on a slip of paper), than mid event, but not many will have done that.

So note to those who got confused about closing times.  Work them out on the Saturday, once you have the brevet card, then write them down on a bit of paper you can carry with you..
Closing for the last wave.
Or better yet tape your own closing times to the top tube in something waterproof. If you plan on leaving each control by this time you know when you arrive how much time you can afford. Although it is better to get further ahead of these times through the day to allow some sleep at night
   Eddington  87 miles

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #102 on: September 13, 2019, 02:07:38 pm »
I took the 'reference' times from the pages in the 'Dossier Participant' which were based on a 17:15 depart, and adjusted them for my own departure time.

When I got my card on the Sat, it was obvious that the closing times were not personalised, and represented the last group's time, and were not relevant to me.
So I wrote my own closing time in small writing at the bottom of each box just for my information.
( I didn't scribble over the printed times, I left those alone. )
No-one complained about this.

That the times in the card would not be "my" times was one of the most important bits of information I got from reading the advice posted on this forum.
Hence why I had a spreadsheet prepared and printed in advance, which meant I only ever had to work out time in hand.

I put it in the plastic wallet so it was as easy to read as it was to get to my Brevet card.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #103 on: September 13, 2019, 02:20:47 pm »
I've looked at all my control times and the control closing times for people on the 80h schedule.

Time limit is 80 hours for 1200km, so average speed is 15kmh. at no control was my average speed below 15kmh. I finished in 79hours 20. However if I had been on the 80hr schedule I would have been officially out of time at 6 controls, due to the front loading.

And had you been on the 80h ride then I'd make a guess that such a ride would have been homologated despite being out of time at 6 intermediate controls. The regulations may say "intermediate control times must be respected" but if they didn't print that then people might plan on missing intermediate control times, which creates far more problems than a few people unintentionally missing them. If they strictly enforced that rule then hundreds of people would lose out on validation. Like most organisations ACP are looking for reasons to validate a ride, not really for reasons not to. Completing the full distance within the time limit is the primary concern.

Is this flushing out those not likely to finish or causing them not to finish? As people stop due to being out of time or dont sleep as much as they need to due to the pressure of making the next control.

I don't think people stop just because they're out of time at a particular control (maybe some do but they should probably have pressed on and see what happens next). Riders generally stop because they start to see that they're falling behind and realise that there's little hope of catching up and finishing in time. They arrive at a control 1h behind, try to keep faffing to a minimum, grab some food, faff, get back out on the road and then arrive at the next control still 1h behind, lather rinse and repeat until they realise that they've still got one or two nights to go and if they carry on at this rate they'll have to do it on no sleep at all.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #104 on: September 13, 2019, 02:29:04 pm »
It could reasonably be argued that since they didn't print the intermediate control closing times for your start, that if you are out at a few intermediates, you didn't realise as you were going by the times on the card...

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #105 on: September 13, 2019, 02:43:39 pm »
I worked to my own self-imposed schedule which was on a piece of paper in my wallet so that I only checked it at controls.   This had a decent amount of padding over and above the control closing times so, as long as I was around my schedule, I wasn't at risk of missing a control closing.

 

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #106 on: September 13, 2019, 02:48:50 pm »
i've let the ride unravel itself on the first half and all went great. started creating schedules in my head for the second part and it all went to pot (vs my expectations).

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #107 on: September 13, 2019, 03:05:19 pm »
i've let the ride unravel itself on the first half and all went great. started creating schedules in my head for the second part and it all went to pot (vs my expectations).

Ah, yes.   The key to making a schedule is to ensure that it is realistic otherwise it does more harm than good.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #108 on: September 13, 2019, 03:51:39 pm »
what seems realistic at the moment of planning, becomes unrealistic when the unexpected things/events start putting sticks into your wheels :).

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #109 on: September 13, 2019, 04:09:06 pm »
No it didn’t. It had the opening for the first group and the closing time of the last group.... confusing stuff!

This caught me out, I thought the opening and closing times in the brevet cards were for the first group. I thought I had 9 hours in hand by the time I got to Loudeac on the way out so I had a 4.5 hour sleep. I left Loudeac slightly out of time but was ok by St. Nic. It's only because I ran into Wilkyboy at Carhaix on the return who mentioned we were close to the limits that I found out my mistake.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #110 on: September 13, 2019, 06:15:26 pm »
I avoided all this worry by not looking at the brevrt card, simple really :demon: :smug:

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #111 on: September 13, 2019, 09:44:36 pm »
Same here. Used the provided documentation (based on 17:15 start iirc) to create my own list of closing times, expected arrival (on the pessimistic side), and fading. Printed and laminated, with backup on the phone that I also used to track actual arrival and faffing.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #112 on: September 13, 2019, 09:57:34 pm »
The controllers were far from infallible. Looking back at my 2011 Brevet card I see they put the wrong time down for me arriving at Carhaix on the way back.

They wrote "13h50" instead of "19h50". It's not just a badly written 9, it's clearly a 3.

[ The 2011 Brevet Card I have had the opening/closing times for a 6pm start. As I started at 8pm I just had to add 2 hours on to the time in the card to see where I was up to. I was never out of time (according to my start) but most of my arrival times on the way back were beyond the closing times for the 6pm start, i.e. I had less than 2 hours in hand. In 2011 they didn't stamp your card at the start (well, they scribbled in it hours before you actually started as there was just an enormous queue with no designated waves) so no-one could tell from the Brevet card whether I was still in time or not. ]
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #113 on: September 13, 2019, 10:15:11 pm »
I avoided all this worry by not looking at the brevrt card, simple really :demon: :smug:
I didn’t look at my brevet card either and was in the fortunate position of being nowhere near my control closing times, but I still empathise with riders struggling close to the limits.

I think there was a time when it made sense to make riders go faster earlier in the ride to push them along to a successful finish, but now that the event is so huge, riders from the bulge backwards spend so much time queuing that they have little time left for essentials like resting and eating. This is exacerbated by a headwind out situation like we had this year.

Having control times based on total distance divided by total maximum and minimum times applied throughout the event would be a big help in alleviating this problem. I also think that the organisers should have  the correct control opening and closing times printed in the brevet cards for each start group so that riders can easily see how much time in hand they have.


Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #114 on: September 13, 2019, 10:28:10 pm »
what seems realistic at the moment of planning, becomes unrealistic when the unexpected things/events start putting sticks into your wheels :).

Yes.

Plan, yes. But don't over-plan.

An over-planned time schedule spreadsheet is a good prop, right up to the point where it has to be tossed.
At that point, you loose the prop and are at a bit of a loss.

Have some more vague plans instead.
Plan to get to Brest before any sleep stops.
But that might not work out.
Backup plan, sleep earlier.

Plan to ride back as 2 x 300k,
Be flexible about where you will stop to sleep.

Don't be a slave to a schedule you made on a PC in the comfort of home.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #115 on: September 13, 2019, 11:08:54 pm »
Lot of sense in Feanor's post.
But, I reckon that you have to be pretty good to get to Brest without any sleep if you set off on Sunday night.
I have done it but the dozies usually hit me hard around Huelgoat. In 2015, I reached Brest around 5.30 a.m, had a couple of hours shut eye before setting off.
If you store up the sleep deprivation until Tuesday and Wednesday then you can pretty much guarantee yourself a hard time on that last night.
I had 2 hours of good sleep in a bed at Tinteniac on the way back which was enough to get me to Dreux.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #116 on: September 14, 2019, 12:06:09 am »
Thought I'd see what like if the average for the 90hr was a steady 13.3


Standard Route            km   Steady Close       Real Close         My time            Stdy IH    Real IH
RAMBOUILLET                0   18/08/2019 18:30   18/08/2019 18:30   18/08/2019 18:36      
Mortagne-au-Perche       118   19/08/2019 03:21   19/08/2019 02:22   18/08/2019 23:13   04:08:00   03:09:00
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL       217   19/08/2019 10:46   19/08/2019 08:58   19/08/2019 04:22   06:24:23   04:35:53
FOUGERES                 306   19/08/2019 17:27   19/08/2019 14:54   19/08/2019 10:13   07:13:42   04:40:42
TINTENIAC                360   19/08/2019 21:30   19/08/2019 18:45   19/08/2019 14:11   07:18:38   04:33:38
Quédillac                386   19/08/2019 23:27   19/08/2019 20:36   19/08/2019 15:53   07:34:00   04:43:00
LOUDEAC                  445   20/08/2019 03:52   20/08/2019 00:49   19/08/2019 19:49   08:03:04   04:59:34
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem   488   20/08/2019 07:06   20/08/2019 03:56   19/08/2019 22:53   08:13:00   05:03:00
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER         521   20/08/2019 09:34   20/08/2019 06:15   20/08/2019 01:26   08:08:02   04:48:32
BREST                    610   20/08/2019 16:15   20/08/2019 12:36   20/08/2019 08:51   07:23:26   03:44:26
CARHAIX-PLOUGUER         693   20/08/2019 22:28   20/08/2019 18:34   20/08/2019 15:06   07:22:15   03:27:45
Saint-Nicolas-du-Pélem   738   21/08/2019 01:51   20/08/2019 21:57   20/08/2019 18:05   07:46:00   03:52:00
LOUDEAC                  783   21/08/2019 05:13   21/08/2019 01:23   20/08/2019 21:07   08:05:48   04:15:18
Quédillac                843   21/08/2019 09:43   21/08/2019 05:59   20/08/2019 02:26   07:17:30   03:33:00
TINTENIAC                869   21/08/2019 11:40   21/08/2019 08:02   20/08/2019 03:45   07:55:03   04:16:33
FOUGERES                 923   21/08/2019 15:43   21/08/2019 12:11   20/08/2019 09:43   05:59:32   02:27:02
VILLAINES-LA-JUHEL      1012   21/08/2019 22:24   21/08/2019 19:16   20/08/2019 17:03   05:20:05   02:12:05
MORTAGNE-AU-PERCHE      1097   22/08/2019 04:46   22/08/2019 02:18   20/08/2019 22:43   06:02:46   03:34:16
DREUX                   1174   22/08/2019 10:33   22/08/2019 08:46   20/08/2019 05:12   05:20:04   03:33:04
RAMBOUILLET             1200   22/08/2019 12:30   22/08/2019 12:30   20/08/2019 09:08   03:21:21   03:21:21


It's quite a striking difference;

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #117 on: September 14, 2019, 03:41:37 am »

And had you been on the 80h ride then I'd make a guess that such a ride would have been homologated despite being out of time at 6 intermediate controls. The regulations may say "intermediate control times must be respected" but if they didn't print that then people might plan on missing intermediate control times, which creates far more problems than a few people unintentionally missing them. If they strictly enforced that rule then hundreds of people would lose out on validation. Like most organisations ACP are looking for reasons to validate a ride, not really for reasons not to. Completing the full distance within the time limit is the primary concern.

This will be a good test of that theory. I missed several controls times for my group but finished within my time at Rambouillet.

I don't think people stop just because they're out of time at a particular control (maybe some do but they should probably have pressed on and see what happens next).

The advice I have always received is "keep going until someone takes your card away". I don't see how that could happen this year unless you arrive at some control after the last closing time.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #118 on: September 14, 2019, 07:09:08 am »
The advice I have always received is "keep going until someone takes your card away". I don't see how that could happen this year unless you arrive at some control after the last closing time.
Riding back to(wards) the Cherbourg-Poole ferry, while stopped at a supermarket eating outside in time-honoured audax fashion, a guy came up and said 'well done' etc (bikes still with dossards etc on). He had started in the 84s last start (?0530) and finished with minutes to spare. Arriving out of time at Montagne the control was packing up, and he had some difficulty finding anyone to sign his brevet (assume the timing mats were still in place). But pressed on; Dreux was still open; and he finished before 1730 Thursday. He must have been one of the last finishers (ie not hors delai).

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #119 on: September 14, 2019, 07:17:13 am »
Lot of sense in Feanor's post.
But, I reckon that you have to be pretty good to get to Brest without any sleep if you set off on Sunday night.
I have done it but the dozies usually hit me hard around Huelgoat. In 2015, I reached Brest around 5.30 a.m, had a couple of hours shut eye before setting off.
If you store up the sleep deprivation until Tuesday and Wednesday then you can pretty much guarantee yourself a hard time on that last night.
I had 2 hours of good sleep in a bed at Tinteniac on the way back which was enough to get me to Dreux.
I think you need to be on the 80hour starts. I slept at Carhaix, but if I had started 2 hours earlier and so arrived at Carhaix 2 hours earlier I would have carried on. If I'd been certain of a bed when I got there I would also have carried on but the risk of arriving at 2am to be told the beds were all taken was not worth it.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #120 on: September 14, 2019, 08:58:41 am »
This is the first time that I was over 84hours (by 14minutes) but I have never been confident enough to start in that group. Those extra 6 hours as a tourist are my comfort blanket.
Usually Carhaix beds are full and that forces me on to Brest. It's not my favorite control.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #121 on: September 14, 2019, 11:10:48 pm »
The advice I have always received is "keep going until someone takes your card away". I don't see how that could happen this year unless you arrive at some control after the last closing time.

It'd only take one industrious controller at each control to work out the closing times for every group that might come through.

TBH If I were a PBP controller I would definitely do this, just so I could correlate how people look with quite how far ahead or behind they are.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #122 on: September 15, 2019, 01:49:23 am »
Heather and I had a think about how you could display the closing time for each group at each control graphically. You could do it on the kitchen clocks you get at Argos. Each start letter could be aligned with the hour hand, so when you looked at the clock you could see how much time you had left.

It would mean having four stickers in a single hour segment, but I'm sure the graphic designers among us can give some guidance. Clocks in the background are always a godsend in photos and video. There can never be too many clocks.

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #123 on: September 15, 2019, 09:36:21 am »
Heather and I had a think about how you could display the closing time for each group at each control graphically. You could do it on the kitchen clocks you get at Argos. Each start letter could be aligned with the hour hand, so when you looked at the clock you could see how much time you had left.

It would mean having four stickers in a single hour segment, but I'm sure the graphic designers among us can give some guidance. Clocks in the background are always a godsend in photos and video. There can never be too many clocks.
or you could put a poster behind the desk, with closing times for each group, and a second one with times for the next control, we're only talking about a table with 25 rows (start waves) and 3 columns (group, open time, close time) after all. Remember your group time marks on the clocks will be at 15 minute intervals, so it will get very busy.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: PBP 2019 - Notes to self
« Reply #124 on: September 15, 2019, 10:17:00 am »
Not such an issue on LEL as the brevet card contains the opening and closing times for the individual and their group. But, as per Wycombewheeler's suggestion, a simple letter and closing time poster behind the check in desk at a control would be easy enough. You'd need a poster for going north and one for going south.