Author Topic: Cheating - maybe?  (Read 8842 times)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #50 on: September 02, 2019, 03:23:51 pm »


A velomobile would probably be an ideal candidate for a bit of regenerative braking.

I'd be quite happy to see regenerative braking, and a motor. As long as the battery starts at 0 volts, the criteria for being powered solely by human effort is satisfied. A redesigned hub dynamo would work well. It would work especially well for timid descenders.

Suitable gearless hub motors[1] are readily available, and the controllers that drive them can do regenerative braking simply by altering the phase of the switching (it is, in effect, a simple software modification), so most of them support it.  The real-world benefit is negligible[2] (you typically extend the battery range by a couple of percent), as on a bicycle there's so little kinetic energy to recover, and a limit to how much current you can dump into a small battery.

A velomobile might do better, as it's slightly heavier and loses less power to drag, but most multi-track recumbent people are leaning towards mid-drive motors for boring practical reasons, which are lighter, but upstream of the freewheel and can't regenerate.

Starting from 0V isn't practical with a lithium-ion battery (though you could of course integrate the current in and out to determine the net consumption), but might be with supercapacitors (which handily tolerate higher peak currents, too).  That'd be a pretty niche application - basically for competing in events with a "no stored energy" rule that are enlightened enough not to dismiss electrikery out of hand.  (I believe the HPV racing community - which would permit this sort of thing - have experimented with flywheels in the past, to conclude they aren't worth the weight.)


[1] Which are basically a bigger, three-phase version of a hub dynamo.
[2] Other than as an anti-lock braking system for mountain bikes.
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frankly frankie

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Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2019, 06:46:15 pm »
"Pure cheating" - a concept for the philosophers?

In "pure" terms I can't see any objection to meeting a supporter - either by arrangement or by chance, either a supporter you know or one you don't - at any intermediate point between controls.  It's just that some of those cases are against the rules, sometimes. (Meeting a supporter you don't know, by chance, and being plied with cider, isn't.)  You can break the rules and still ride all of the distance under your own steam.
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simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2019, 07:17:02 pm »
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2019, 07:23:30 pm »
"Pure cheating" - a concept for the philosophers?

In "pure" terms I can't see any objection to meeting a supporter - either by arrangement or by chance, either a supporter you know or one you don't - at any intermediate point between controls.  It's just that some of those cases are against the rules, sometimes. (Meeting a supporter you don't know, by chance, and being plied with cider, isn't.)  You can break the rules and still ride all of the distance under your own steam.

What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #54 on: September 02, 2019, 07:34:55 pm »
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.

If I had a properly equipped shed, a budget, mechnical skills and copious free time, I quite like the idea of building a cycle (probably a trike) with a purely electric drivetrain to lose BHPC races on.  KERS would be a logical step along the way.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2019, 06:50:36 am »
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2019, 07:45:05 am »
Efficiency of small motor/generators is, AIUI much lower than large ones - I'm not convinced a purely regenerative approach would be worthwhile for the weight penalty.
I believe the regenerative set ups on expensive ebikes are about 50% efficient. Imagine empty battery, a downhill then matching up hill scenario with traffic lights at the bottom. If you are unlucky enough to hit red, then you still get half way up the other side without pedalling though you still have the weight of two full bidons to lug up the remaining half of the uphill.


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Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2019, 07:56:09 am »
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQC Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2019, 08:16:21 am »
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQ Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.
I guess Quimper vans were allowed then.


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Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2019, 08:59:21 am »
With respect to audax it's not cheating, cheating is sport in gaining an unfair advantage over your competitors and seeing as audax is non competitive then I can't see how it is cheating.

Rule breaking for sure though and more agro than it's worth imo.

IMHO, it devalues the efforts of those who do complete the whole ride in the required time limits (plus allowances for good Samaritans etc...)

Some people will have devoted a year or more of their life to complete this ride. It'll be the only one they ever do, the hardest thing they've ever done, and something they will cherish. Knowing others have done it with a electric motor, or with the assistance of a camper van, devalues those who completed it.

Doping is an interesting one, especially as many of us aren't actually aware of just what is on the WADA lists as both controlled substances and as banned. Took too much sudofed because you picked up a cold on the way to the start, could put you over the limit. With 6000 people doing the ride, I have no doubt that if you tested every single one of them you'd get at least some hits for controlled substances.

Motor doping seems a weird one, how do you actually carry enough battery for 1200km? Do you have a support crew bringing you recharged units?

Hitch hiking bits between controls and still claiming a finish is just taking the piss...

J


I lean towards QG's opinion, mostly. Cheating is 'not following the rules', regardless of whether you are talking about a sport, a game or a pastime. It sticks in the craw if others 'claim the glory' of an unearned finish. I understand that some military folk take down on random people wearing unearned medals. What do you think about that situation Peter?

The ACP have a mechanism to forever refuse entries from individuals for any of their events for egregious behaviour. Using motor vehicles between controls to avoid riding the full distance but claiming validation would count as egregious behaviour IMHO.

Oh, yes D>  What I meant was that what others do wouldn't diminish my own satisfaction.    I don't like people wearing unearned medals and for the same reason I don't like people wearing world champion jerseys or even trade team jerseys (unless they are Molteno!).  And I certainly don't like sandpaper - but am not averse to assistance from incompetent umpires!

Peter

PS I can also understand that people who are "racing" (and many on PBP are racing to a certain extent) would feel irritated to appear to be further down the field than they might otherwise be.  But the clock is the real opponent.  Certainly I don't like dishonesty - in anything - but I'm a lesser mortal than many on here and would be absolutely thrilled to have got round - and, no, I wouldn't have cheated in order to finish.  I'm from the "leave me here in the gulch with a gun in every hand" school!

Peter

I disagree.  The club you join by finishing (or by finishing in under a certain time) is less prestigious if it is larger, and if fewer people have failed.  Cheaters artificially inflating the size of that group is something that diminishes your achievement, and about which every honest finisher can feel rightly aggrieved.

Hillary and Tenzing would not be so well remembered if ten other people had climbed Everest first, using secret hidden jetpacks.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #60 on: September 03, 2019, 09:19:32 am »
What would meeting a supporter you do happen to know who just happens to have enough "stuff" to assist more than just you even though they are only roadside for say 1 hour be?

As long as your supporter gives "stuff" to anyone who asks, even during only 1 hour, it falls into the category "neutral assistance". There is no more cheating than with locals handing out free food/coffee.

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQC Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.
I guess Quimper vans were allowed then.


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It's an interesting area. The ANEC motorcycle team have helped at PBP many times, but their role is to help at races in Normandy principally. Marshals from FF Velo are drawn from cyclotouriste clubs, mainly from along the route, so they know the background, and aren't going to get too officious. So the enforcement is pragmatic. There's an official film that shows support at the Roc. Anyone who has been to the Semaine Federale a lot is able to recognise French club shirts.

https://youtu.be/-Js_r8owls0?t=135

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #61 on: September 03, 2019, 09:29:16 am »
... so over 30% fail rate.


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Tim Hall

  • I want to eat the fleeting shade of your lashes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #62 on: September 03, 2019, 09:33:19 am »

The assembly of free assistance beside the mast at the Roc consisted of unregistered support vehicles, and local clubs. CRQ Quimper seemed to be the largest contingent. Technically they were on the route, but would have accessed the area from the road that joins at the roundabout just before.
I guess Quimper vans were allowed then.


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Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #63 on: September 03, 2019, 09:43:43 am »
The club you join by finishing (or by finishing in under a certain time) is less prestigious if it is larger, and if fewer people have failed.  Cheaters artificially inflating the size of that group is something that diminishes your achievement, and about which every honest finisher can feel rightly aggrieved.
That also makes sense, at least for those entrants who are concerned by prestige having their achievement judged by others, which I guess is quite a lot of people (and kind of fits with the old "pretending not to race" line).
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Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #64 on: September 03, 2019, 10:04:27 am »
Along the line of all sorts of cheating, I browsed through the photo album posted by Ivo, and I spotted someone with a large solar panel on the bar bag. Can't say whether the solar panel was backfeeding a dynohub but it must be possible.


Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #65 on: September 03, 2019, 10:14:38 am »
There are three groups for a reason. The 80 is equivalent to Sportive, 84 is specifically Randonneurs, and 90 hours specifically Touristes.

The only group that's constantly observed are the lead vedettes. Everyone else is on trust for a lot of the time.

The racing element of PBP has been comprehensively undermined by the changes to the start and finish. You can now give yourself a time advantage by starting at the back of your group, and working your way up to the motorbikes before they peel off after St Leger.

The first three back consisted of one A rider and two B riders. The B riders automatically had around 15 minutes on the A rider. That group had worked together since at least before Loudeac, and the came over the line together. But it's not clear which of the three separate finishes counts. It was largely irrelevant, as the velomobile from the F group came in a minute later.

A cheating story is all that someone who set out to report a race is left with. The real losers are those who set out to report on the adventure racer/ bikepacking aspect of PBP. I've got a bit of that, as a chance encounter led to an interview with Ana Orenz. Her story ticks a lot of the current boxes, but as my partner is a PBP Ancienne and a Hyper-Randonneuse, it's a bit less impressive to me.

Heather also ran an LEL control five times, so we have previously spent a lot of time looking at control layout and choke-points. She's not running a control in 2021, so we spent a lot less time in them. A knowledge of control pitfalls will save you a lot more time than a bit of cheating will. Experience and situational awareness are key attributes, and that's where support is very useful.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #66 on: September 03, 2019, 11:59:51 am »
Along the line of all sorts of cheating, I browsed through the photo album posted by Ivo, and I spotted someone with a large solar panel on the bar bag. Can't say whether the solar panel was backfeeding a dynohub but it must be possible.

A back of the envelope calculation should put you at ease.

A solar panel you can carry on an upwrong's barbag isn't large enough to give you much more than maybe 20W.  De-rate that for weather and because it's mostly pointing in the wrong direction.  Factor in efficiency losses.  Then add the aerodynamic drag and the effect of the extra weight.  (I suppose you *could* drive a hub dynamo if you added appropriate sensors somewhere and didn't need it to be self-starting.  You'd have to keep the power level in the low tens of watts so you didn't burn it out, and I expect the efficiency would be fairly poor.)

Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket.  Pretty safe to say it would have been powering a bike light or smartphone or something, for which it is probably quite competitive with dynamo charging, if less reliable.

A velomobile covered in photovoltaics is approaching the power levels needed to usefully[1] power a velomobile.  I think this is something we're going to see more of in coming years, with recent improvements in flexible photovoltaics.  But it's hardly subtle.


[1] Though not at 100% duty cycle.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #67 on: September 03, 2019, 12:39:07 pm »
Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket. 
But it's not about the level of gains, it's the principle. If it were powering a hub, which seems very unlikely.

Quote
A velomobile covered in photovoltaics is approaching the power levels needed to usefully[1] power a velomobile.  I think this is something we're going to see more of in coming years, with recent improvements in flexible photovoltaics.  But it's hardly subtle.


[1] Though not at 100% duty cycle.
Sounds like a great move for something like an e-cargo-mobile.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #68 on: September 03, 2019, 12:45:17 pm »
Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket. 
But it's not about the level of gains, it's the principle. If it were powering a hub, which seems very unlikely.

Oh, agreed.  Just because it's a waste of time doesn't mean it's not breaking the rules.

Presumably using the solar panel as a sail is a grey area.  "I'm just charging my iPhone, guv."  (Would require doubly-cooperative weather, of course.)
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Karla

  • car(e) free
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Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #69 on: September 03, 2019, 01:08:32 pm »
Along the line of all sorts of cheating, I browsed through the photo album posted by Ivo, and I spotted someone with a large solar panel on the bar bag. Can't say whether the solar panel was backfeeding a dynohub but it must be possible.

A back of the envelope calculation should put you at ease.

A solar panel you can carry on an upwrong's barbag isn't large enough to give you much more than maybe 20W.  De-rate that for weather and because it's mostly pointing in the wrong direction.  Factor in efficiency losses.  Then add the aerodynamic drag and the effect of the extra weight.  (I suppose you *could* drive a hub dynamo if you added appropriate sensors somewhere and didn't need it to be self-starting.  You'd have to keep the power level in the low tens of watts so you didn't burn it out, and I expect the efficiency would be fairly poor.)

Overall gains would be of the order of zipping up your jacket.  Pretty safe to say it would have been powering a bike light or smartphone or something, for which it is probably quite competitive with dynamo charging, if less reliable.

A velomobile covered in photovoltaics is approaching the power levels needed to usefully[1] power a velomobile.  I think this is something we're going to see more of in coming years, with recent improvements in flexible photovoltaics.  But it's hardly subtle.


[1] Though not at 100% duty cycle.

Let's see, for a 20 W max panel power, what are you left with to drive with?

Night time uselessness: Down to 11-12 W
Cloud losses: Down to 8 W
Shadowing and pointing the wrong way losses: Down to 3 W
Efficiency losses (both electrical and mechanical) in the whole system from panel to tyre: 1 W

That's a pretty faffy way to gain a watt.  I reckon zipping up your jacket would be considerably more effective, as well as easier.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #70 on: September 03, 2019, 01:14:56 pm »
On zipping up jackets, there was much noise in these hallowed pages a few years ago when Jan Heine proved (for JH values of proof) that there is more drag from a saddle bag than a bar bag of equivalent size. How dare he cast aspersions on the choice of every proper British randonneur! While in the very same article he'd said the difference was less than that from changing a flappy jacket for something sleeker.
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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #71 on: September 03, 2019, 01:28:06 pm »
Mr Heine's assertion is not true if the rider chooses a saddlebag without side pockets, as I usually do. The extra drag was entirely the result of the saddlebag being wider than the rider's thighs/ hips. A pocketless Carradice is narrower than my meaty thighs and childbearing hips (I blame my mother...).
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #72 on: September 03, 2019, 01:30:07 pm »
There's probably an actual benefit if the bag has a bit of taper to it.  But that's heading into sensible non-dangly luggage, if not beard and sandals aerodynamic fairings territory.

None of which is cheating in this context.
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #73 on: September 03, 2019, 01:53:35 pm »
Each to their own and all that but riding with a bar bag would slow me down considerably as I wretched every time I looked at it.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #74 on: September 03, 2019, 02:02:02 pm »
I rather like my bar bag. I like being able to open and close it as I ride. Though I don't like its bracket, which is clumpy, heavy and ugly. I was briefly tempted by one of those fancy bracketless and flip-top-able bar bags they featured in the We are Cycling UK Gazette recently, but fortunately the importers had sold out, which saved me £90.  :o

Anyway, obviously having bar bag and saddle bag together would cancel each other out aerodynamically, while zipping up your jacket hides the battery for the electric motor. The train ticket is a jersey pocket and the syringe of EPO in the luggage, though I'm not sure whether front or back.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree