Author Topic: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?  (Read 2629 times)

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
One of my pet things I like about Audax a lot is the whole 'pre-modern olympiad record keeping' romance. I presumed that Audax Club Paris stores everything in servers/filing cabinets of their own, with Audax UK acting as a kind of intermediary. Or do I have this wrong?

The reason I ask is I was hoping to find a big long list of all of 2019's super randonneurs from all over the world in one place, sortable by year, but perhaps there is no such a thing and I can refer only to the Audax UK list instead.

If there is such a think I thought it might be accessible at http://www.audax-uaf.com/ or http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/ but I have combed for a few minutes and come to nowt. It's not exactly a life or death requirement and doing it by hand would have been painstaking but now my curiosity is piqued...
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Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2019, 07:01:33 pm »
Certainly they have records of all brm rides completed as I could look at all the rides I had done when I was registering for PBP.. But the system does not offer a list.as far as I can tell.
   Eddington  87 miles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2019, 07:38:37 pm »
There is no published Super Randonneur list for the world. A few countries publish lists; often an annual blogpost.

ACP records all BRM results world wide but doesn’t publish a list of SRs. They do maintain a list of Randonneur 5000 and Randonneur 10000 but all of their awards have to be claimed. This includes SRs and not all folk do that.

Few organisations automatically calculate awards from their records like AUK does.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2019, 07:38:56 pm »
If the PBP system reflected the underlying data, there isn't a solid concept of a unique person in the BRM database, just non-unique names and clubs and rides. It's easy to end up listed under different clubs for different rides (e.g. one of my foreign rides ended up as AUK rather than ACH). Some people probably have ambiguous/varying names, and there are no doubt duplicate names too.

So I doubt they know.


Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2019, 03:04:55 pm »
There is a list of some ilk on the ACP site:
http://www.audax-club-parisien.com/EN/426%20-%20Results%20Super%20Randonn%C3%A9e.html
That looks like a list of those that have completed various Super Randonnee rides. Which (as I understand it) are ridiculously hilly 600km perms with slightly different rules. I think.

S2L

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2019, 03:50:35 pm »
Whilst you have an AUK ID, you don't have an ACP one, so there is no way ACP can associate your brevets to a particular identity, basically what Grams says

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2019, 10:02:36 am »
If everyone in the world had a unique ID, then projects like this would be a lot simpler.  However that appears to be politically untenable, so far.

As it is, even in the UK alone, SRs are listed if they are AUK members (and so have an ID that AUK can use) but UK non-members are not listed.  So in that sense even AUK's lists are not complete.  (To be clear, AUK does retain records of non-member rides - from 1976 to the present - but only as individual records, they are not processed or summarised in any way.)
ACP's records are very complete (though I'm not sure to what extent the historical paper records have been databased) but they only pertain to BRM rides, so from AUK's perspective they are incomplete as we have many SRs and other results by virtue of BR rides.

Extending the AUK-style data model to a global scope is in theory pretty straightforward, but the obvious repository for such would be LRM, and over a very long period that 'organisation' has not shown itself to be a safe pair of hands, with officials of greatly varying competence/commitment, bug-ridden websites, etc.  (No reflection on the current President but he has inherited a historical mess.)  I considered pushing this project about 15 years ago but decided it would probably end up as a waste of time.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2019, 10:27:28 am »
As it is, even in the UK alone, SRs are listed if they are AUK members (and so have an ID that AUK can use) but UK non-members are not listed.  So in that sense even AUK's lists are not complete.  (To be clear, AUK does retain records of non-member rides - from 1976 to the present - but only as individual records, they are not processed or summarised in any way.)
AUK Regs: "13.2.4 The Randonneur Award Series is for achievement in one season . . . The Super Randonneur award is available to all riders; only subscribed AUK members are eligible for other Randonneur awards."
"13.2.3. Distance medals, badges and awards: Riders who successfully complete [. . .] shall be entitled to buy the appropriate medal and/or badge for that [award]"
Do many non-AUK members apply for the Super Randonneur award, I wonder?

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2019, 10:46:08 am »
No idea but they would have to claim their counting rides (by quoting AUK's public records) and someone would have to check the claim against the records manually.  I think what often happens is that the non-member joins AUK late in the season and then requests their historical records to be credited to their new ID (which is more troublesome, but certainly sometimes done).
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2019, 12:05:49 pm »

Don't forget not everyone who is awarded an AUK SR status, can claim SR status from ACP. So we have people who have done an SR series of BR events homologated by AUK, but as none of the events are BRM, ACP don't care.

One of the reasons I don't understand the AUK obsession with BR over BRM...

J
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LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2019, 12:11:17 pm »
BRs allow for certain useful things that BRMs do not e.g. over-distance routes, non-standard distances. Not having to fix the event date by the previous September is also helpful.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2019, 12:13:34 pm »
BRs allow for certain useful things that BRMs do not e.g. over-distance routes, non-standard distances. Not having to fix the event date by the previous September is also helpful.

At the cost of them not being recognised outside the British Isles...

J
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frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2019, 01:30:15 pm »
AUK is a much larger organisation than ACP, and the ride regulations are substantially the same.  If ACP don't recognise AUK's rides, that's their problem, not AUK's.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2019, 04:28:46 pm »
AUK is a much larger organisation than ACP, and the ride regulations are substantially the same.  If ACP don't recognise AUK's rides, that's their problem, not AUK's.

If the UK doesn't want to play by the same rules as the rest of the world, that's the UK's problem, not RoWs...

Given that ACP homologate rides world wide, and the UK homologates just in the UK, surely the claim that AUK is bigger is rather bogus?

J
--
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http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2019, 05:13:52 pm »
Randonneurs USA and Audax Australia similarly have locally homologated 200+km brevets, albeit a minority of their calendars. Several other countries recognise locally homologated perms as equivalent to calendar brevets as AUK does (ACP doesn’t). Sub-200km brevets are, by definition, not BRMs and several countries organise their own variations on that particular theme.

There is room for locally and internationally homologated brevets, once the organisation gets big enough. AUK grew past that particular threshold ages ago. As long as there are ‘enough’ BRMs in the AUK calendar, I’m happy for the rest to be BRs or BPs.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2019, 05:47:16 pm »
AUK is a much larger organisation than ACP, and the ride regulations are substantially the same.  If ACP don't recognise AUK's rides, that's their problem, not AUK's.

If the UK doesn't want to play by the same rules as the rest of the world, that's the UK's problem, not RoWs...

Given that ACP homologate rides world wide, and the UK homologates just in the UK, surely the claim that AUK is bigger is rather bogus?

J

It's not really a problem at all provided both sides accept that AUK does a form of cycling suspiciously similar to ACP Randonneuring that isn't.

FC Barcelona play Futsal as well as Football, Basketball, Handball and Roller Hockey.
Futsal wasn't a variant of association Football recognized by Fifa until relatively recently.
It's certainly not a form of Football recognized by the IFAB and it's unlikely it ever will be.

Is it a problem for IFAB that FIFA recognize other forms of Football?
Is it a problem for FIFA that IFAB don't recognize other forms of Football?
Is any of this a problem for FC Barcelona?

Likely No in all cases.


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2019, 06:48:12 pm »

It's not really a problem at all provided both sides accept that AUK does a form of cycling suspiciously similar to ACP Randonneuring that isn't.

Except for when someone is trying to do something that is recognised more widely, such as the ISR, or ACP medals, or the awards issued by other countries, etc...

And given the OP's question for a database of all those who have completed an SR series. The SR series as recognised by ACP is not necessarily the same as an SR series as recognised by AUK. While they broadly share the same rules, there are differences, esp wrt to over distance.

There is room for locally and internationally homologated brevets, once the organisation gets big enough. AUK grew past that particular threshold ages ago. As long as there are ‘enough’ BRMs in the AUK calendar, I’m happy for the rest to be BRs or BPs.

How many is "enough" ?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2019, 06:58:29 pm »
Different for everybody, obviously.

For me, when I can collect a SR without excessive difficulty.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2019, 07:00:20 pm »

How many is "enough" ?


There were 140 BRM rides run under Audax UK in the last year. How many BRMs were run in the Netherlands in the past year?

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2019, 07:17:21 pm »
AUK is a much larger organisation than ACP, and the ride regulations are substantially the same.  If ACP don't recognise AUK's rides, that's their problem, not AUK's.
If the UK doesn't want to play by the same rules as the rest of the world, that's the UK's problem, not RoW's...
Sorry: what is/was the problem, exactly (or inexactly)?
Don't forget not everyone who is awarded an AUK SR status, can claim SR status from ACP. So we have people who have done an SR series of BR events homologated by AUK, but as none of the events are BRM, ACP don't care.
And AUK doesn't care. And the rider who has qualified as an SR (AUK) (but not SR(ACP) doesn't care. So if all three key parties don't care, . . . not an issue.
The only relevance for UK riders wrt BRM v BR is for:
1) pre-qualifying and qualifying for PBP every 4 years - AUK puts considerable effort into encouraging organisers to apply for BRM status for rides in the various distance/calendar windows every 4 years
and/or 2) if they want to 'claim' an ACP award. And, if it matters to them, those riders will take account of whether a ride is BR or BRM.
Now I've just got to complete an SR ("ridiculously hilly 600km perm with slightly different rules") for my ACP 10k, after two bails.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2019, 07:20:16 pm »
Different for everybody, obviously.

For me, when I can collect a SR without excessive difficulty.

Makes sense.

There were 140 BRM rides run under Audax UK in the last year. How many BRMs were run in the Netherlands in the past year?

This year was a PBP year, so a lot of rides were BRM that might otherwise have not been. How many are on next years calendar? What about the year before?

This coming year, I think the plan is: there will probably be 14 200's, three 300's, two 400's and two 600's. And a 1200. For a country geographically about the same area as the home counties and London, and has ~200 members. All BRM.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2019, 07:29:37 pm »
There were 73 BRM out of 526 events the year before. But you can do these searches yourself should you choose.

In essence there are more than enough to do RRTY or SR as BRM should you choose.


Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2019, 07:45:18 pm »
Also remember that many years ago ACP requested AUK not to log as many of their rides as BRM as it was too much of an administrative burden for them.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there a central database for all e.g. Super Randonneurs worldwide?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2019, 07:46:43 pm »
Also remember that many years ago ACP requested AUK not to log as many of their rides as BRM as it was too much of an administrative burden for them.

Now it's all done electronically, and the cards aren't sent to .fr, is that something that needs reevaluating?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/