Author Topic: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank  (Read 6104 times)

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2019, 01:11:43 pm »
And not very accurate. Many many cars have a smaller footprint that a full sized Range Rover

But very few SMBTs are Range Rovers these days. The “behemoth” from the original post was a Porsche Macan, which is not much different in size and weight to a Mondeo/Toledo/whatever.

Well, let's say all oversized, overpowered modern cars. SUVs are neither sports nor utility vehicles, after all.

Range Rovers of various flavours seem to be breeding fastest at the moment.
!nataS pihsroW

vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2019, 01:22:10 pm »
some car weights

normal cars
vw golf 1211 kg
fiat 500 499
bmw 520 1615

SUVs and chelsea tractors
porsche Cayenne 2060
range rover sport 2144
jeep grand cherokee 2948
toyota land cruiser 3349
mercedes benz gle 2235
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Kim

  • Timelord
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #27 on: September 12, 2019, 01:24:46 pm »
Does that mean you can't fill a Landcruiser with stuff unless you've got a special licence?  Perhaps that's the endgame, if the lack of parking room isn't?
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #28 on: September 12, 2019, 01:26:20 pm »
Compare with the original SUV, the Willys Jeep:
Quote
Wheelbase : 203.2 cm or 80 inches
Length : 332.7 cm or 130.98 inches
Width : 157.5 cm or 62.01 inches
Height : 182.9 cm or 72.01 inches

Curb Weight : 1113 kg OR 2454 lbs
Weight-Power Output Ratio : 20.6 kg/hp
https://www.ultimatespecs.com/car-specs/Willys-Overland/23043/Willys-Overland-Jeep-MB.html
"Pick a flower on Earth and you move the farthest star." Dirac.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #29 on: September 12, 2019, 01:29:48 pm »
A Range Rover seems to come out, on average, at 2,500 kg. Not including the weight of the driver, which tends to be substantial.
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vorsprung

  • Opposites Attract
    • Audaxing
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2019, 01:33:43 pm »
Presumably the amount of kinetic energy to kill someone would be lower with a big vehicle

Usually the figure quoted is that at 30mph there is quite a high kill rate, but this is reduced as speed goes down: so a 20 mph limit will help a lot

Someone better at maths and physics can work it out properly but when I did various sums I came to the conclusion in a collision that a 1 tonne (1000Kg) car at 50kph is the same as a 2 tonne car at 31 kph

So reducing the speed limit to 20mph won't help if you are unfortunate enough to be hit by one of these
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Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2019, 01:53:04 pm »
That would be the correct maths for if the vehicle was brought to a stop by hitting you, having imparted all of its kinetic energy into your body.

What more likely happens is you go flying and the vehicle's speed is barely affected. It only imparts a tiny proportion of its KE into you, so it kind of doesn't matter if it's 1 ton or 2 tons behind it.

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2019, 01:58:11 pm »
I suspect the fairest way to compare vehicles, would be comparing small car with small "crossover", and so on. I would bet money that the sizes are comparable because they are basically the same car eg a Nissan Juke is a Micra on stilts. On that basis, the correct comparison for a Range Rover (5m x 1.99m) would be a BMW 7 series (5.12m x 1.90m).

The only argument I can make for a "crossover" is that a higher seat is useful for people with limited mobility. My mother in law would not be able to get into our car as she has bad hips, but she can get into their quashquai.

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2019, 02:28:50 pm »
some car weights

normal cars
vw golf 1211 kg
fiat 500 499
bmw 520 1615

SUVs and chelsea tractors
porsche Cayenne 2060
range rover sport 2144
jeep grand cherokee 2948
toyota land cruiser 3349
mercedes benz gle 2235

The current Fiat 500 is about 1000 kg kerb weight, which is about the norm for small cars now.
The 1957 - 1975 Fiat 500 had a kerb weight of 499 kg.

I would't describe a 44+ year old car with a 2-cylinder engine of less than 600 cc as "normal".


Quote from: Kim
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Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2019, 02:53:21 pm »
I have a ‘Biggy’ (as #1 son refers to my Mini Paceman). I bought it because I like the look and coming from a series of people carries, which I no longer need, I couldn’t face being low down. I’m a big chap in any case, and many cars, not just small ones, are awkward to get in and out of and damned uncomfortable to drive. I also like the extra shoulder room it affords without the need to go for a much larger car. It’s our only car so it has to fill the long journeys on motorways role as well as the local runabout role. So all in all, it’s just about perfect for our needs.
I’m really not sure what I’ll get next because Mini have stopped manufacturing them, and there’s not really much I fancy in my price range. Given how often I change my cars though, I don’t think, it’s going to be an issue for a while yet. 
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2019, 02:59:05 pm »
That would be the correct maths for if the vehicle was brought to a stop by hitting you, having imparted all of its kinetic energy into your body.

What more likely happens is you go flying and the vehicle's speed is barely affected. It only imparts a tiny proportion of its KE into you, so it kind of doesn't matter if it's 1 ton or 2 tons behind it.

I think I'd be better off rolling over the low bonnet of a conventional saloon / hatchback, that being clouted by the slab front of a Range Rover.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #36 on: September 12, 2019, 03:00:11 pm »
That would be the correct maths for if the vehicle was brought to a stop by hitting you, having imparted all of its kinetic energy into your body.

What more likely happens is you go flying and the vehicle's speed is barely affected. It only imparts a tiny proportion of its KE into you, so it kind of doesn't matter if it's 1 ton or 2 tons behind it.
Well, I find that hard to believe (but admit to no expertise) and I know which one I’d rather be hit by.

The other factor for targets in this comparison is the height of the vehicle. The higher up the impact the more damaging it can be, I understand.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #37 on: September 12, 2019, 03:01:59 pm »
I refer you back to the issues with Marlow bridge and the HGV induced damage. This resulted in stricter enforcement of the 3.5 tonne weight limit and some very irate X5 drivers who got turned back or fined.

https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63751.msg2225555#msg2225555

And more recently:

https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/17637098.56-drivers-slapped-with-fines-for-driving-overweight-vehicles-across-marlow-bridge/

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #38 on: September 12, 2019, 03:03:31 pm »
Another thing, of course, is that while they may be safer for the occupants, they're not so for other road users – and given their intimidating nature, discourage other users from the roads and pavements. Which might, for the wrong reasons, keep the death and injury rates down.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #39 on: September 12, 2019, 03:14:44 pm »
Another thing, of course, is that while they may be safer for the occupants, they're not so for other road users – and given their intimidating nature, discourage other users from the roads and pavements. Which might, for the wrong reasons, keep the death and injury rates down.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/28/pedestrian-safety-crisis-deaths-ghsa/2993321002/

Quote
Pedestrian deaths are up 51.5 percent since hitting a low of 4,109 in 2009, according to GHSA. They now make up 16 percent of all road deaths, up from 12 percent in 2009.

Quote
The GHSA reported that the number of pedestrian deaths involving SUVs increased by 50 percent from 2013 through 2017, while the number of pedestrian deaths caused by passenger cars increased by 30 percent over that same period. That reflects booming sales of SUVs and the fact that pedestrians are much less likely to survive the impact of an SUV.


Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #40 on: September 12, 2019, 03:19:52 pm »

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #41 on: September 12, 2019, 03:23:51 pm »
some car weights

normal cars
vw golf 1211 kg
fiat 500 499
bmw 520 1615

SUVs and chelsea tractors
porsche Cayenne 2060
range rover sport 2144
jeep grand cherokee 2948
toyota land cruiser 3349
mercedes benz gle 2235

That is bonkers.
We have a citroen xsara picasso. It is 'large inside'; we have moved sofas with it. Last sunday I observed that the 5.2m kayak on the roof rack barely overhung the ends.

Kerb weight 1300kg
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #42 on: September 12, 2019, 04:50:07 pm »
I've spent some time driving a friends volvo xc90 and it's terrifying until you get used to the momentum - 2.5 tonnes, a big engine and an automatic gearbox means almost no engine braking. It's also stupidly wide and almost impossible to park. She bought it because 'nobody has died in an XC90'

It did take 2 adults & 4 big teenagers and a weeks worth of surfing gear to cornwall with almost no complaints though.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #43 on: September 12, 2019, 05:47:14 pm »

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present

What is the signage? There are signs for
All vehicle weight restriction


All vehicle Vehicle Maximum Axle mass restriction


Commercial vehicle weight restriction.


For the later the vehicles class is important.
i.e. A motorhome or an SUV are not normally registered as commercial vehicles

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2019, 06:16:40 pm »
My sole 4 wheeled vehicle is a 1989 Land Rover 127 Tipper. It weighs 2.4 tonnes unladen. It's about 2 metres wide. Like all proper Land Rovers, it's sheer misery to drive, but kids love them for some weird reason.

It's surprising that there are very few proper working 4WD vehicles on general sale. The basic chassis of many of the vehicles would seem to be suitable, but they aren't offered. The big Toyota Hi Luxes are better than many, as they have more room in the back of the double cab versions.

Most of the one ton pickups in the world are made in Thailand, and the rear legroom reflects that. The big Ford Rangers are from South Africa too, and they've taken the utility market, now that Land Rover don't do the Defender.

The weight for the Land Cruiser upthread is fully laden, The kerb weight is lower. Land Cruisers are pretty capable, and are ideal if you've got a digger to deliver across a field, as they can tow 3 tonnes with ease. My Land Rover is rated to tow 3.5 tonnes, but it is a light truck. I will always choose to park it next to the most 'macho' 4WD I can find in the supermarket car park.

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #45 on: September 12, 2019, 06:25:10 pm »
I may have a mini SUV. It's a Fiat 500L. It's a vehicle. It's quite useful but not remotely sporty (1400cc). It is considerably larger than the old 500s but it ain’t exactly huge. It's the same length and width as the car it replaced - a Peugeot 307 - but has a higher roof. It also manages to have more room inside.
I don't think it's very intimidating.
I quite like it.
So there.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #46 on: September 12, 2019, 08:19:29 pm »

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present

What is the signage? There are signs for


It’s just in the text t’s & c’s on the signs listing the charges.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #47 on: September 13, 2019, 11:03:06 am »

We obviously just need a 3.5 tonne weight limit on residential roads with appropriate exceptions for deliveries, removals, and garbage trucks.

They also exceed the weight limits as stated in all the car parks in our local town - intended to prevent commercial vehicles parking there. No-one is enforcing that at present

What is the signage? There are signs for
All vehicle weight restriction



Marlow bridge is one of these 3T limit

Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #48 on: September 13, 2019, 11:27:30 am »
What I actually want is a 130 inch wheelbase version of the Troller T4. That's a proper off roader made in Brazil, based on the Ford Ranger, so parts would be easy.
https://www.carthrottle.com/post/the-ford-troller-t4-is-a-tough-and-plucky-brazilian-4x4-we-need-in-the-uk/

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Rise (and Fall) of the Suburban Main Battle Tank
« Reply #49 on: September 13, 2019, 11:44:14 am »
It’s just in the text t’s & c’s on the signs listing the charges.

Ah so illegal to park but not drive through!