Author Topic: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad  (Read 3856 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2019, 07:41:25 pm »
73 finishers out of 100 for NL; don't think you can say that the lack of hills in qualifiers has been the problem.
Unless most of the 27 non finishers avidly avoid Limburg and the Ardennes.

I suspect LittleWheelsAndBig has hit on it, there's plenty of information, advice and Experience to those of us in AUK and Ranndonneurs NL.
I've hears someone grumbling about things where that info was readily available on here to consume in advance.

Is that based on "nationality == Dutch"? or is that based on "ACP==808056"?

Because the former will include riders like Jasmijn Muller who did all her qualifiers in .UK. Is data available based on ACP number? RNL sent ~80 riders IIRC.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2019, 07:55:52 pm »
The oddities of nationality vs. country of residence are a small percentage. There are a lot of Indians living in other countries and I know that at least a couple of them took part in PBP too.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2019, 08:12:27 pm »
73 finishers out of 100 for NL; don't think you can say that the lack of hills in qualifiers has been the problem.
Unless most of the 27 non finishers avidly avoid Limburg and the Ardennes.

I suspect LittleWheelsAndBig has hit on it, there's plenty of information, advice and Experience to those of us in AUK and Ranndonneurs NL.
I've hears someone grumbling about things where that info was readily available on here to consume in advance.

Is that based on "nationality == Dutch"? or is that based on "ACP==808056"?

Because the former will include riders like Jasmijn Muller who did all her qualifiers in .UK. Is data available based on ACP number? RNL sent ~80 riders IIRC.

J

The former.
The later is 52/72 but 2 of them seem to have abandoned; so 69% rather than 73% it's still a decent %age of finishers.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2019, 08:12:35 pm »
If a route is going to be signed, sign it with the riders in mind. Bigger signs and greater area (arrow (not triangle) shaped) of reflective material. It'll mostly be at night when errors may occur and when riders are tired: the challenges of the Perche after Mortagne come particularly to mind, as well as aiming for over-signing in the towns, entry and exit. A 'pace line' of headlights returning to 3 junctions helped our group either side of Wednesday (2359) midnight.
Glad I wasn't negotiating the Rambouillet finish area as a full value rider middday or 5pm Thursday (90/84 starts) for the reasons stated above. Surprised that riders and their supporters on the thoroughfare of the motorhome avenue weren't more aware that thousands of riders would be coming that way, yet to finish their ride. There needs to be a segregated exit route for those who've completed and a ban on vehicular movement there till 6pm Thursday, except for emergency/organising team vehicles. Unless that interference is designed out, I guess this needs (in short supply) volunteer help to police.
Thought the finish was fine and far too much whining has gone on. But I too am glad it was dry round that courtyard. The brevet check/stamping stations worked well there, and for me they were the model of efficiency at every control.
How about PBP shares plans of the layout of each control showing key features: entrance, exit (routes), bike racking, brevet control, loos, various eating options, shower/sleeping, water bottle filling, mechanic? Have any 'walk-round videos been made of the various controls. For a newbie like me, previewing those would have been excellent preparation.
Sizing advice for the tops and safety gilets cannot be difficult to get right. Based on the posts in this forum I chose 'advisedly' and got both sizes dead right (XL and M) but so many didn't and for clothing where there's no 'return' this (sizing advice) is doubly important.


Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2019, 10:51:29 pm »
To beat this drum once again, make it easy for riders to determine the closing time for their group at each control, e.g. a large poster next to the control tables like this:




Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2019, 11:46:47 pm »
To beat this drum once again, make it easy for riders to determine the closing time for their group at each control, e.g. a large poster next to the control tables like this:



Except E was an 80 hour start, and on the Monday morning 84 hour, W started at 4:45, X at 5:00, Y at 5:15 and Z at 5:30.


Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #31 on: September 23, 2019, 04:28:23 am »

Except E was an 80 hour start, and on the Monday morning 84 hour, W started at 4:45, X at 5:00, Y at 5:15 and Z at 5:30.

Sorry, my view of the 80's and 84's was a bit hazy from group R. I thought E was the special bikes.

What I did see was a lot of 90 hour riders confused about when their control closed and unaware that they were way behind the pace.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #32 on: September 23, 2019, 09:07:51 am »
To beat this drum once again, make it easy for riders to determine the closing time for their group at each control, e.g. a large poster next to the control tables like this:


Although for clarity each control only needs two columns, this control and the next control. No one at Carhaix needs to know what time Mortagne closes.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #33 on: September 23, 2019, 10:06:41 am »
All this chat about when controls close for each start group. Did any riders get refused a brevet stamp because they were 'out-of-time' at a particular control, except those who arrived when the control itself had closed (because the last 84 hour start riders were 'out-of-time')? If this was not really an issue, then does this matter much.
A sensible rider who thought they might be full-value at some stage during the ride would prepare themselves by constructing a simple list of controls and times (I wrote mine on my (paper) road atlas map sheets).
The idea of printing up separate brevets for every start would add to expense/complexity (but not much). Even then, given the 'rolling' nature of the start these would have been minutes wrong in the event. I have separately related meeting a guy from the Z start (both of us on the way back to the ferry) who arrived at Mortagne after it closed (and the control desk had closed/was unmanned) but finished before his deadline at Rambouillet. The timing mat recorded his visit there and at Dreux.
What's required is for ACP PBP orgs to share the algorithm they use for the intermediate times (for 80/90/84).
I tried to work this out (get a best fit) for 90: =start time + (km'age to control (way out)*X/(24*610)) where X increased from 40.8 to 42 over the 610km to Brest.
And on the way back: =required time at Brest (42 hours) + (km'age to control from Brest*48)/(24*608))
I'm sure others will have done better.
Any rider "way behind the pace" and not knowing it has failed to prepare, imo, and suggests lack of self-reliance, maybe a result of the style of 400s/600s they had ridden to qualify.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #34 on: September 23, 2019, 10:13:32 am »
Control opening and closing times for each start letter should really be in the brevet cards anyway, even if this means 26 print runs instead of 3.

It’s interesting to note the times allowed for reaching Brest for the 3 start bands: -
80 hours - 36:48
84 hours - 38:22
90 hours - 42:06
In 2011 I would have been out of time at Brest in the 80 and 84 hour starts with 39:20 due to a few things going wrong, even though I ended up finishing in 69:43. Luckily I was in the 90 hour, but in the last two I’ve been in the 84 hour so taking a calculated risk that such things wouldn’t happen again.

Due to high likelihood of a headwind out to Brest and queues at controls, I think it would be fairer to have control closing times calculated from a flat rate minimum average speed required to cover the full distance in the chosen maximum time. I think the current front weighted system puts unnecessary pressure on slower riders who could otherwise actually get round in time for a successful finish.


dubya

  • You can't stop the waves,but you can learn to surf
Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #35 on: September 23, 2019, 10:23:25 am »
Like most my control times where my only issue, everything else Ive put down to experience required to do at 1200/PBP.  This was my first PBP /1200 and I had assumed that the brevet card would have my control times printed.  My whole ride was made difficult by my misunderstanding of the times in the card and once I realised my error I was right up against my time.

A page in the brevet book with open / close of controls with a simple 'adjust for your start time', and may be an empty column next to start / end so you can write your adjusted time would have cleared up the confusion.


dubya

  • You can't stop the waves,but you can learn to surf
Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #36 on: September 23, 2019, 10:28:40 am »
To beat this drum once again, make it easy for riders to determine the closing time for their group at each control, e.g. a large poster next to the control tables like this:


Having this as an A4 sheet in the sign-on pack would solve all the issues.  Even if a rider lost theirs they only need ask another rider.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #37 on: September 23, 2019, 10:31:15 am »
All this chat about when controls close for each start group. Did any riders get refused a brevet stamp because they were 'out-of-time' at a particular control, except those who arrived when the control itself had closed (because the last 84 hour start riders were 'out-of-time')? If this was not really an issue, then does this matter much.
A sensible rider who thought they might be full-value at some stage during the ride would prepare themselves by constructing a simple list of controls and times (I wrote mine on my (paper) road atlas map sheets).
The idea of printing up separate brevets for every start would add to expense/complexity (but not much). Even then, given the 'rolling' nature of the start these would have been minutes wrong in the event. I have separately related meeting a guy from the Z start (both of us on the way back to the ferry) who arrived at Mortagne after it closed (and the control desk had closed/was unmanned) but finished before his deadline at Rambouillet. The timing mat recorded his visit there and at Dreux.
What's required is for ACP PBP orgs to share the algorithm they use for the intermediate times (for 80/90/84).
I tried to work this out (get a best fit) for 90: =start time + (km'age to control (way out)*X/(24*610)) where X increased from 40.8 to 42 over the 610km to Brest.
And on the way back: =required time at Brest (42 hours) + (km'age to control from Brest*48)/(24*608))
I'm sure others will have done better.
Any rider "way behind the pace" and not knowing it has failed to prepare, imo, and suggests lack of self-reliance, maybe a result of the style of 400s/600s they had ridden to qualify.
I dont believe anyone was stopped for being out of time at intermediate controls, but when the information sent out states 'closing times must be respected' it leads riders to believe it is a possibility and act accordingly.
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #38 on: September 23, 2019, 10:48:53 am »
If you were in an early group and followed the closing times in the brevet card and not realised, you could easily have put yourself on course to get to Rambouillet out of time, regardless of whether intermediate times were enforced or not.

Printing numbers in the card that are wrong for almost everyone - in the wrong direction - is bonkers behaviour. At least in the dossier they printed the start times for the first group rather than the last. Nothing to do with how prepared riders are - the organisers shouldn't be actively working against the riders.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #39 on: September 23, 2019, 10:50:29 am »
The control timetables were clearly in the pack “calculated on the basis of a start at 17h15, to be adjusted to your real start time” so you work out your personal closing times based on your start time.

For me, not making a cutoff was my main concern so I had all my specific times on a laminated card on my stem.

It wasn’t anything unknown imposed on riders. I’m not sure why people are making a big thing of this. 
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #40 on: September 23, 2019, 11:07:17 am »
It wasn’t anything unknown imposed on riders. I’m not sure why people are making a big thing of this.

As is generally the case in this world we now live in I think it's so there's someone to blame if you get it wrong.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #41 on: September 23, 2019, 11:16:06 am »
Heather and I got quite shirty about control times in 1999.

25km had been added in the first section due to roadworks, and been notified in a separate printed sheet in the information pack that was posted out. No additional time was added initially, which was alright for those who were fast enough to absorb the distance, but ate into the sleep time for slower riders. Heather stopped at Tintenaic, with the dozies, confused at to why her plans weren't working. 2 hours were added at the end. 2 hours also got added in 2007, but that wasn't widely advertised.

There's never been a completely smooth control-time process. In theory LEL had it under control with separate cards for each letter group, but that came with a 'we'll be very relaxed about those times up to Edinburgh' proviso.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #42 on: September 23, 2019, 11:16:50 am »
It wasn’t anything unknown imposed on riders. I’m not sure why people are making a big thing of this.

As is generally the case in this world we now live in I think it's so there's someone to blame if you get it wrong.

Yes, except where others have either through malice or mistake, mislead you. If I were to print the wrong time on the brevet cards for a BRM, then enforce a different cut off at intermediate controls, I too would expect riders to be grumpy.

Given that the times on the card appear to have been wrong for everyone bar 1 group. Surely the best thing is to provide no time on the card, and allow everyone to write in what they think their cut off time is. This is one of those cases where no info is better than wrong info.

We are so used to the info being given by organisers on our brevet cards being right, that for such a flagship event to have it wrong really stands out.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #43 on: September 23, 2019, 11:36:48 am »
I never thought there'd be a constituency in favour of incorrect times being printed in the brevet card.

I presume you all went round swizzling direction arrows just to thin out those who hadn't studied the map. It's their own fault!

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #44 on: September 23, 2019, 11:44:22 am »
The times weren't incorrect. They gave the control opening and closing times for your time group. Intermediate controls have closing times for their ownn convenience. With a single start time, those times serve as a prompt.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #45 on: September 23, 2019, 11:57:16 am »
The control timetables were clearly in the pack “calculated on the basis of a start at 17h15, to be adjusted to your real start time” so you work out your personal closing times based on your start time.

For me, not making a cutoff was my main concern so I had all my specific times on a laminated card on my stem.

It wasn’t anything unknown imposed on riders. I’m not sure why people are making a big thing of this.

I just would have liked some consistency.  I saw that control timings page in the dossier and so I was adding 0.5 hours to the opening and closing times in my brevet card.  I didn't realise I needed to add 0.5 hours for the opening time and subtract 3.25 hours for the closing time.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #46 on: September 23, 2019, 12:51:03 pm »
My brevet card had the opening and closing times for the start as 17:15 - 21:00.  From that it was pretty obvious that the intermediate times were not to be trusted so I used the slip of paper that I had prepared based on the document in the info pack.  Whilst it would have been nice to have personalised brevet cards I certainly didn't expect it.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2019, 01:09:08 pm »
I didn't prepare well enough for the times. I maintain a reasonable rate on the bike, and don't expect to be full value. I came out of my 600 qualifier with a niggling Achilles and spent the month or so before PBP worrying about a ride-ending injury.  I didn't anticipate all the faff at controls and queues. I spent 5 hours queuing for food and 2 queuing for toilets. Once I realised I didn't have much time in hand I found it difficult to clarify what I was up against.

Next time I'd do it differently. Bounce controls, use roadside stops and cafes. That doesn't alter the fact that as an under-prepared newbie clearer times would have been a great help.

I've read blogs, seen reports and checked the riders out on the app. Quite a few people congratulating themselves on their achievement were out of time on one or more controls. They could be in for a shock if their ride isn't validated. Equally if it is that affects other people. I was following 2 guys to Tinteniac who pulled over, intending to pack because they were out of time for the control. What would they think if the intermediate times turn out to be indicative rather than firm?

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2019, 01:35:23 pm »
I was following 2 guys to Tinteniac who pulled over, intending to pack because they were out of time for the control. What would they think if the intermediate times turn out to be indicative rather than firm?

There were some preliminary validation numbers from ACP posted a few days ago (on Facebook) that had roughly the same number of "hors delais" finishers as the unofficial results site - which only considers time at Rambouillet. So my assumption is intermediate control times aren't being enforced at all, otherwise there would likely be hundreds more.

The times weren't incorrect. They gave the control opening and closing times for your time group. Intermediate controls have closing times for their ownn convenience. With a single start time, those times serve as a prompt.

What purpose does knowing that serve though?

I initially thought they might have chosen to print the *final* closing time of each control, which would at least have been useful to stragglers, and meant only one print run.

Re: What would you like to feedback to PBP organisers good and bad
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2019, 01:57:22 pm »
If they said "being out of time at intermediate controls isn't a problem" they'd create much more of a problem (for the controllers and many riders) than if they say "intermediate control times must be respected" and then choose not to enforce it.

A crap analogy is that there are plenty of laws in the UK that haven't been used (for a prosecution) for years (e.g. treason) but that doesn't mean you can repeal those laws as doing so would possibly adversely affect behaviour.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."