Poll

What's the max number controls (not infos, but full controls), you think reasonable for a 200km BRM?

2
8 (11%)
3
40 (54.8%)
4
16 (21.9%)
5
6 (8.2%)
6
1 (1.4%)
≥7
2 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 73

Author Topic: How many controls for a 200?  (Read 2462 times)

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2019, 05:26:48 pm »
I like the last leg to the finish to be rather short, say 35-40km. Otherwise, 60-70km between controls feels ideal. You do the math  :P

For me it's not so much a physical as a mental thing. Sure, you can divide a long leg by planning a stopover yourself, but somehow I rarely do and when I do it doesn't have the same feel. Yeah, I'm weird  ;D

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2019, 05:35:23 pm »
Also, something to bear in mind, my requirements now (as a much more experienced rider) are quite different to when I first started Audaxing.

50km seemed like a very long way to the first control on my first 200 and I felt like I desperately needed refuelling when I got there. I'm sure I could have still got through had it been 80/70/60km legs but I was glad it was closer to 50/50/50/50.

Now I'd probably prefer 80/70/60 and would bounce the 80km control to have a first proper rest/restock at 150km. I'm much more set up for fuelling on the move now so the controls are more of a minor annoyance than a relief/sanctuary.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2019, 05:41:41 pm »
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.


Just under 90 minutes based on the RUSA calculator. For an 0900 start, they have to be there from 0935 until 1100...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

S2L

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2019, 05:43:08 pm »
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.


Just under 90 minutes based on the RUSA calculator. For an 0900 start, they have to be there from 0935 until 1100...

J

About 45 minutes by BR rules

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #29 on: September 26, 2019, 05:46:35 pm »

About 45 minutes by BR rules

I'm organising a BRM, so I have to play by the rules from ACP, not AUK.

Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

S2L

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #30 on: September 26, 2019, 05:51:45 pm »

About 45 minutes by BR rules

I'm organising a BRM, so I have to play by the rules from ACP, not AUK.

Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

J

I don't think you get extra time for starting late. My understanding is that you can start late, but you are eating into your time provision... and I also thought the obligation for the organiser is for 30 minutes, not 60.

All academic, obviously, as nobody gives a monkey about timing at a control at km 20 and if the controller is no longer there, I am sure you can get away with a selfie, receipt or other POP

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #31 on: September 26, 2019, 06:06:28 pm »
I don't think you get extra time for starting late. My understanding is that you can start late, but you are eating into your time provision... and I also thought the obligation for the organiser is for 30 minutes, not 60.

You don't get extra time, but the organisers are also required to not close controls while people are still allowed to start...

Quote

All academic, obviously, as nobody gives a monkey about timing at a control at km 20 and if the controller is no longer there, I am sure you can get away with a selfie, receipt or other POP

It's not academic in every case.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #32 on: September 26, 2019, 06:17:33 pm »
2 is best, 3 is ok ,anymore too many.
I guess the thing is , if your route has lots of places to get food/drink riders can stop were they like , so 2 stamp controls would be fine.

I am rider who likes 70km plus between controls many do many don't
As a organizer why have more control's then i need.

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #33 on: September 26, 2019, 06:17:57 pm »
The greatest emphasis should be on the distance, accomplished with easy navigation.  If it's too convoluted then it probably needs a re-think.   

S2L

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #34 on: September 26, 2019, 06:23:25 pm »
As Ian says,

basically a control is there for a reason, which typically is to define the shape of your route. A "rectangle shaped route" will have typically 3 controls, a triangle can do with 2. More complicated shapes will need more controls or more info controls.

Route is king, then you sort out the controls accordingly.

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2019, 07:15:56 pm »
There's the railway problem of course. Around here we have to put a control between the obvious stops at Preston, Lancaster, Penrith etc. 200s tend to less affected than longer rides, as the shorter ones go into the hills. The M6 motorway services tend to get used, as they are nowhere near railway stations.

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2019, 07:59:00 pm »
Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

No you can’t. Nor on an AUK BRM, since that rule hasn’t been copied over.

(Do continental organisers really hang around at the start for an hour?)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2019, 08:00:22 pm »
Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

No you can’t. Nor on an AUK BRM, since that rule hasn’t been copied over.

Oh. No late starting at all on AUK events?

Quote
(Do continental organisers really hang around at the start for an hour?)

yes.


J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

S2L

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #38 on: September 27, 2019, 08:14:21 am »
Doesn't the above mean you can't start upto an hour late under BR?

No you can’t. Nor on an AUK BRM, since that rule hasn’t been copied over.

Oh. No late starting at all on AUK events?

Quote

Haven't seen any guideline on the AUK organiser handbook,which suggests it is discretionary. Personally I don't bother to hang around more than 5 minutes and if someone wants to start late, they can always come back with POP even without a card and get validation. Info controls can be replaced by selfies or other forms of POP.
As long as the evidence is satisfactory, the card is redundant

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2019, 09:07:40 am »
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.

I remember a "drop a laminated token in a bucket someone is holding at the side of the road" control within the first 10km of the one 200[1] many years ago. Worked well and the person was probably only standing at the side of the road for 15 minutes or so, easily free to be able to man a control later on in the ride.

1. Upper Thames or maybe it was the SBWW. 10 years ago at least.

Yes, Upper Thames, 2004 and 2005. It didn't really work that well - too many riders seemed confused by the concept of taking a token at the start that they dropped in a bucket a few km down the road as they rode past!

Many riders have told me that when I moved the start/arrivee and dropped from 3 controls to two it was a much better event. The loss of a big hill in the final 10k was part of that (it's still in the event, but near the start instead), but lots expressed a preference for the two (almost exactly equally spaced along the route) controls. 70km gives a far better chance of a late starter reaching the first control "in time". Always supposing that the start is still manned for their late departure.

Given the availability of food outlets in England and (most of) Wales, I agree with Wilkyboy's comments above, but rather different criteria might apply in much of Scotland.

Given the OP's statement that they are organising a mandatory route event the number of infos is irrelevant. There are plenty of threads here about them anyway.

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2019, 09:18:30 am »
There used to be 3 within the first 70k on the old Cheltenham Flyer. :jurek:

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2019, 09:33:24 am »
I quite like when organisers pick a suitable eatery for riders to feel part of a collective endeavour.

(“Suitable” being the tricky bit, of course)

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2019, 10:17:32 am »
If advisory you have to be mindful of meeting min distance in planning whilst not having an overly over distance actual event route. Mandatory you can have fewer controls with a secret one possibly thrown in. The shape of a route will often dictate the number of controls, an out and back (such as PBP) requiring the fewest. (Even fewer if one way like an arrow)

The event I'm organising is a mandatory route event (like all Dutch events).

Quote
Some hate getting a receipt, some hate Infos, some hate stopping, some hate queuing. You can mitigate the receipt and queuing by having a volunteer or sheet of stickers at certain controls. Try an avoid Infos if some riders might pass that location when dark and struggle to answer (or indeed read) the question

Info's are a tough one when you have to deal with multi language instructions, and of course the issue of colour blindness etc... But the choosing a good info thing has been done in a number of other threads.


Plus fog

I once road a 200 organised by Rocco. The info control was 'what's the colour of the building at km...'. Dense fog so I entered 'battleship grey'

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2019, 10:53:41 am »
At 20km they don't have to be there for long.


Just under 90 minutes based on the RUSA calculator. For an 0900 start, they have to be there from 0935 until 1100...

J

I think (although may have misremembered this) that RUSA have a complicated formula for their first few control closing times so that you can still get to the first controls at a reasonable pace if you’ve started late.

S2L

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2019, 10:53:48 am »


I once road a 200 organised by Rocco. The info control was 'what's the colour of the building at km...'. Dense fog so I entered 'battleship grey'

It is a stupid question to ask in an Info control, seeing that colour blindness is more common than people think

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2019, 10:58:06 am »
It is a stupid question to ask in an Info control, seeing that colour blindness is more common than people think

Not to mention the way men and women think about colour differently:

https://blog.xkcd.com/2010/05/03/color-survey-results/

I'd say it's a grey area, but having read Randall's work, I'm not sure what grey is anymore...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2019, 11:42:50 am »


I once road a 200 organised by Rocco. The info control was 'what's the colour of the building at km...'. Dense fog so I entered 'battleship grey'

It is a stupid question to ask in an Info control, seeing that colour blindness is more common than people think
Does it really matter, so long as it's answered in good faith?

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2019, 11:47:42 am »
I had to do an info control in Flemish once - ran it through google translate and it came out as 'the name of the old timer on the door'. Got to the place but was none the wiser as to what it meant.

Apparently it was the number plate of a photo of an old car on the door of the café, the organiser sympathised and stamped me.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2019, 12:21:21 pm »
I had to do an info control in Flemish once - ran it through google translate and it came out as 'the name of the old timer on the door'. Got to the place but was none the wiser as to what it meant.

Apparently it was the number plate of a photo of an old car on the door of the café, the organiser sympathised and stamped me.

Yeah, this is the problem with info controls. At least for the Dutch events a question needs to be in Dutch, German, and English, just because we have such an international mix on our rides. When I've been in doubt at an info location, I've taken a photo of the location as an additional backup.

It always amazes me the number of info controls on AUK events. I've only had 3 across the events I've done in NL/DK/BE. Had a few photo controls tho...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

S2L

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2019, 12:22:14 pm »

Does it really matter, so long as it's answered in good faith?

In good faith, we can agree that such info is redundant