Poll

What's the max number controls (not infos, but full controls), you think reasonable for a 200km BRM?

2
8 (11%)
3
40 (54.8%)
4
16 (21.9%)
5
6 (8.2%)
6
1 (1.4%)
≥7
2 (2.7%)

Total Members Voted: 73

Author Topic: How many controls for a 200?  (Read 2465 times)

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #75 on: September 28, 2019, 08:11:24 am »
It’s a bit early in the day to be hurling insults at other organisers, isn’t it?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #76 on: September 28, 2019, 08:23:28 am »
If unmanned secret controls became the norm, then I argue that even validation loses completely its point. As Ian says above, a mandatory route is not a good reason for poor practice

How exactly does an uncrewed* secret control work?

If its secret, then the riders don't know it's happening until they see the big sign by the road, and someone trying to flag them down.

Isn't that just a convoluted way of doing an info?

J

*Any control where I'm the sole controller is likely to be unmanned, but it won't be uncrewed...
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #77 on: September 28, 2019, 09:55:08 am »
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

But isn't shortest distance calculated differently for mandatory? The defined route dictates the distance not min distance between controls. So you can define your event route , then place controls at suitable distances along it.  Whereas with advisory; infos often turn up in an effort to hit the minimum distance but the advised route is plenty over the min distance.

No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.

Ok, I'll probably convert a full control into an info (on one of my events)  in that case as mandatory doesn't seem to offer any advantages unless I have lots of volunteers to man secret controls. I thought it'd be the same as DIY mandatory where distance is based on the mandatory route.

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #78 on: September 28, 2019, 10:04:40 am »
If unmanned secret controls became the norm, then I argue that even validation loses completely its point. As Ian says above, a mandatory route is not a good reason for poor practice

How exactly does an uncrewed* secret control work?

If its secret, then the riders don't know it's happening until they see the big sign by the road, and someone trying to flag them down.

Isn't that just a convoluted way of doing an info?


I guess it's exact location won't be known, like an info location is (yeah I know). So you could say there are unmanned secret controls where we've placed signs with bright green backgrounds. Please record the letter on the sign, but we won't tell you where they are.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #79 on: September 28, 2019, 10:04:47 am »
A secret info? I like it! Don't tell 'em your name, Pike!

I mostly set events to Mandatory to make it clear that it is expected that the published route will be followed...



Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #80 on: September 28, 2019, 11:45:06 am »
I'm all for mandatory routes to keep riders off sections of road the organiser deems unfit to ride, but if they're being used as an alternative to infos, then swapping the freedom of an advisory route for them seems a poor trade.  I've been on plenty of rides where different riders will choose their own route for their own reasons, no route is going to please them all and part of the pleasure is that you can make it what you want. I'll even make changes as I go depending on the weather, time of day, how I'm doing for time.  Or even detour for a cafe, shop, something of interest or BCQ point.  I rarely deviate from the route because another is quicker, but there's some events where that quicker route is at least as popular and it'd be a shame if there wasn't the choice.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #81 on: September 28, 2019, 01:29:19 pm »
To be clear, a mandatory route is not a licence to ignore the shortest distance rule.  The controls still have to control.

But isn't shortest distance calculated differently for mandatory? The defined route dictates the distance not min distance between controls. So you can define your event route , then place controls at suitable distances along it.  Whereas with advisory; infos often turn up in an effort to hit the minimum distance but the advised route is plenty over the min distance.

No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.

Ok, I'll probably convert a full control into an info (on one of my events)  in that case as mandatory doesn't seem to offer any advantages unless I have lots of volunteers to man secret controls. I thought it'd be the same as DIY mandatory where distance is based on the mandatory route.
This is the bit that's puzzling me.
sideways bounding monkey lounging under fruit tree

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #82 on: September 29, 2019, 11:25:31 am »
No.  It's still the shortest route (within reason, as with advisory).  Any loops ( eg. to avoid a major trunk road) need the possibility of a secret control.  If more than a couple of legs are like that then the route needs a rethink.   In fact it's the same as any of the continental events, which have never been 'advisory'.

My understanding of continental events is that the controls are there to prove you got round, and the minimum distance between them can be much less than the length of the event*. Taking shortcuts has to filed in the general category of cheating (alongside taking a train/car/ebike/hovercraft) and beyond what controls are there to enforce.

Fretting over MDBC seems to be an AUK invention for the "advisory route" system and shouldn't be carried over to mandatory route events.

(* just checked PBP for my own amusement. It's 1088 km MDBC on ViaMichelin cycling, probably even less by other means)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #83 on: September 29, 2019, 11:28:47 am »

Ok, I'll probably convert a full control into an info (on one of my events)  in that case as mandatory doesn't seem to offer any advantages unless I have lots of volunteers to man secret controls. I thought it'd be the same as DIY mandatory where distance is based on the mandatory route.

Why do you need so many secret controls?


My understanding of continental events is that the controls are there to prove you got round, and the minimum distance between them can be much less than the length of the event*. Taking shortcuts has to filed in the general category of cheating (alongside taking a train/car/ebike/hovercraft) and beyond what controls are there to enforce.

Fretting over MDBC seems to be an AUK invention for the "advisory route" system and shouldn't be carried over to mandatory route events.

(* just checked PBP for my own amusement. It's 1088 km MDBC on ViaMichelin cycling, probably even less by other means)

Yep, that certainly matches my experience. Randonneurs NL also double check the strava logs too. But they aren't totally anal about it. On the Bunnik 200 in January, I rode along the opposite bank of a river for abour 20km, to bag a tile. It's close enough to the route that they were happy.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #84 on: September 29, 2019, 01:06:30 pm »


Why do you need so many secret controls?


Volunteers not controls. If you have a secret control towards one end or the other of an event then you wouldn't expect a single volunteer to remain there for a number of hours. The number of volunteers is more about the number of hours you'd need to cover not the number of secret controls.

If you have a route with a big hill with good views you can of course sit at the top and see riders coming from a long time away.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #85 on: September 29, 2019, 01:48:25 pm »
It's not simple. To have a point, a secret control needs to be quite late in the ride... if it's too early, then riders will just shortcut from there. If it's late, then you need someone to stay in one spot for hours, which is a joyless task, let's face it.

If you just threaten but then don't actually have a secret control, you are just creating problems down the line and for other organisers
I don't get either of your points - a secret control early in the ride does not preclude there also being one (or more) later on.

Equally, why does saying that there 'may' be one or more secret controls, and then not actually having any create any problems for you or subsequent organisers? It doesn't create any sort of binding precedent.

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #86 on: September 29, 2019, 01:49:54 pm »

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.

What is a virtual secret control?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #87 on: September 29, 2019, 07:42:27 pm »

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.

What is a virtual secret control?

J

One you are told exists but in reality doesn't.

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #88 on: September 29, 2019, 08:20:33 pm »
One you are told exists but in reality doesn't.

 ;D
You're only as successful as your last 1200...

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #89 on: September 29, 2019, 09:45:07 pm »
I've definitely seen 'there may be secret controls' before e.g. http://audaxclubhackney.co.uk/events/the-shark/ .

This year, I did have a secret control on The Shark, located about 0.001km from the Arrivée at the other end of the table.
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #90 on: September 30, 2019, 12:57:19 am »
It's not simple. To have a point, a secret control needs to be quite late in the ride... if it's too early, then riders will just shortcut from there. If it's late, then you need someone to stay in one spot for hours, which is a joyless task, let's face it.

If you just threaten but then don't actually have a secret control, you are just creating problems down the line and for other organisers
I don't get either of your points - a secret control early in the ride does not preclude there also being one (or more) later on.

Equally, why does saying that there 'may' be one or more secret controls, and then not actually having any create any problems for you or subsequent organisers? It doesn't create any sort of binding precedent.

If I rode an event which turned out to have a Virtual Secret Control I would complain loudly.  And have done, in the past - it didn't do any good of course but it made me feel better and hopefully made the organiser feel worse.

I've only once felt peeved about the presence or absence of a secret control, on the Mile Failte in 2014. Second night, I think, 2 or 3 or 4 in the morning, I was knackered and, spying a pub bench outside a petrol station, lay down for a distinctly chilly and unrestful half hour of shut-eye (it cannot be dignified with the name of sleep).

After I willingly got up, but reluctantly set off, about 3km up the road somebody leapt out and shouted 'secret control!'

Church hall. Soup. Sandwiches. Tea.

If they'd had blankets or central heating I'd probably have throttled them - as it was, it wasn't significantly warmer than the bench had been, so I managed to smile ...

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: How many controls for a 200?
« Reply #91 on: September 30, 2019, 10:10:51 am »
I've definitely seen 'there may be secret controls' before e.g. http://audaxclubhackney.co.uk/events/the-shark/ .

This year, I did have a secret control on The Shark, located about 0.001km from the Arrivée at the other end of the table.
Ha! I had to miss it but a friend did it - I didn't know about this  ;D
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https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD