Author Topic: Registering a Sportive as an audax  (Read 1018 times)

Registering a Sportive as an audax
« on: October 04, 2019, 06:12:51 pm »
I was under the impression that it wasn’t allowed to register a sportive (or other organised non-audax event) as an audax, but I can’t find the rule that stops it. I was sure there was something about riding with others not doing the same audax or DIY.
Has this changed or have I made it up in my head?
Can you register the GPX of a sportive in advance as a diy?


Cheers

CV


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S2L

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2019, 06:26:46 pm »
Riding a sportive and having it validated as DIY is absolutely fine...
main problem is that rarely they are 200 km, which means validation might prove pointless (literally)... unless you are doing the Fred Whitton and are seeking AAA points, in which case it does make sense to do so

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2019, 06:28:38 pm »
More reading material from a couple of years ago:

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1411.msg11924#msg11924

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2019, 06:34:41 pm »
Great, so I can ECE a sportive and get sucked around by 600 people doing a shorter event for the majority of the time?
Not in the sprint of audax, but if it’s within the rules then all good.
Cheers


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S2L

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2019, 06:36:23 pm »
Great, so I can ECE a sportive and get sucked around by 600 people doing a shorter event for the majority of the time?
Not in the sprint of audax, but if it’s within the rules then all good.
Cheers


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What's the difference with PBP or LEL or any major Audax with hundreds of riders?

At LWL 2018 I sucked wheels at 35 km/h until the first control at Woodstock... nobody complained

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2019, 06:38:39 pm »
Difference is that all are riding the same event in lel etc.


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fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2019, 06:46:42 pm »
See the AUK regulations 9.9.3
Participants may ride singly or in groups and may pace each other but may not be paced by any other cyclist or motor vehicle.

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2019, 06:49:34 pm »
There's nothing stopping you DIYing the event but if you do spend the whole thing drafting other people you've (in theory) disqualified yourself. But (a) the only person who can enforce this rule is you; (b) DIY orgs routinely allow events to be DIYed where drafting non-entrants is all but inevitable; and (c) No one really understands the intention of that rule anyway.

The other rule to be careful about is the "competitive" one, although a typical UK open roads sportive should be fine.

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2019, 06:54:39 pm »
See the AUK regulations 9.9.3
Participants may ride singly or in groups and may pace each other but may not be paced by any other cyclist or motor vehicle.
Yes. This is my point “paced by any other cyclist....” implying those not riding the audax that the participant is doing.


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Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2019, 06:57:58 pm »
Make sure the sportive doesn't publish any timed results as AUK forbids that for AUK events (which a DIY is)

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2019, 07:42:05 pm »
Make sure the sportive doesn't publish any timed results as AUK forbids that for AUK events (which a DIY is)

Except the "event" for this regulation is the DIY, not the sportive, so as long as they're not coterminous, you're not breaking the rule. If you publish your DIY track on Strava, however...

I think the lesson here is that it's not at all clear how the rules which were clearly devised with calendar events in mind apply to DIYs. I'd include the drafting rule in that.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2019, 08:35:51 pm »
Honestly I wouldn't rule out some high flying city boy type doing it to impress his mates! Given sportivers have been done for EPO... https://www.sportive.com/cycling/538129/doping-in-a-sportive-two-riders-caught-using-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2019, 08:50:31 pm »
I think I read somewhere that if the event rewards/acknowledges fastest finishers (e.g. medals for top 3) then that's a no-go even if they're not publishing times?

Martin

  • Give me bas relief
    • WWW
Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2019, 10:37:22 pm »
Great, so I can ECE a sportive and get sucked around by 600 people doing a shorter event for the majority of the time?
Not in the sprint of audax, but if it’s within the rules then all good.
Cheers

no you can't ECE a sportive cos it's not an AUK calendar event; you need to go down the DIY route

we had this discussion years ago and I thought guidelines were written. I think it comes down to "is the non AUK event self sufficient for the rider?" and rides like the IOW 100 Dunwich Dynamo (almost 200 and easily extended to 200 as I have done) and Vattenrundan 300 are definitely in that category so are allowed. All others are still IIRC judged individually via the DIY orgs. The overarching principle being "would the rider be able to complete the distance within the AUK DIY maximum time were they not paced / dropped by other riders?"

24 hour TTs anyone? that fine example of a self supported ride...

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2019, 11:35:32 pm »
I don't see it as a problem. BRMs begat BRs, which begat Perms, which begat DIYs, which begat ECEs.

Club dinners generally have a presentation. In addition to the principal prizes, there are some to encourage participation on a broader basis. I don't see any problem with a category for the most miles recorded on rides which aren't an Audax.

We should have a category for Deliveroo riders as well, some of them clock up big mileages. No mean feat with that box on your back.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2019, 12:57:23 am »
The Mileater awards are probably a close match to that. Any mileage counts (including brevets) with the total vouched for by the rider. No outside validation required, so the opportunity exists for fantasists to boost their egos. By the way, this year HK is on track to break the Poddingtons' Mileater total (barring major dramas), though her GPS tracks adds more credence to the total.

I'm a fan of not collecting AUK points on the back of a non-brevet event, enjoying those events as separate experiences instead, but that seems to be a minority opinion nowadays. Such is life!
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

S2L

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2019, 07:18:48 am »
Honestly I wouldn't rule out some high flying city boy type doing it to impress his mates! Given sportivers have been done for EPO... https://www.sportive.com/cycling/538129/doping-in-a-sportive-two-riders-caught-using-epo-at-gran-fondo-new-york

The issue is a lot more complex and countries where doping spreads to Granfondo level typically have a competitive Granfondo circuit with cash prizes, which explains...
I think you want to read a little more before implying that city boys dope in the UK sportive scene

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2019, 09:56:25 am »
Anyone serious about their sportive performance would be exceeding Audax maximum speed.

Conceptually, I can't see a problem with a sportive offering a 'randonnee' option. That's what happens at PBP in effect. The difficulty would be in what happens once the 'sportive' cutoff time is reached. That would mirror what now happens with the 'HD' classification at PBP and LEL. The facilities might be withdrawn. In the case of a closed-road sportive, the event would once again become a private excursion, complicated by interaction with locals and with those dismantling any event infrastructure.

Tacking an Audax onto the back of a faster event would be like starting the Etape du Tour just after a proper stage. There's also the question of whether Audax should be encouraging 'freeloaders'. Validating riders who don't feel like paying up for the actual sportive then cascades down to Audax, and disincentivises those who want to be more ambitious in their provision. The effect is to force events down to a shoestring level.

Basic events are the core of the Audax tradition, but it doesn't seem to be the current trend.

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2019, 12:54:01 pm »
There's also the question of whether Audax should be encouraging 'freeloaders'. Validating riders who don't feel like paying up for the actual sportive then cascades down to Audax, and disincentivises those who want to be more ambitious in their provision. The effect is to force events down to a shoestring level.

Basic events are the core of the Audax tradition, but it doesn't seem to be the current trend.
I can't see anyone making the suggestion that a rider wishes to ride a sportive without entering it, and paying the (normally) exorbitant fee. The thrust of this thread is how one gets the sportive (that one's riding anyway) AUK-validated as an audax (answer: DIY by GPS), and the side issue of drafting.
Not sure your assertion that 'basic' events are trending downwards is sound. I think there are plenty of riders keen to ride both 'basic' calendars (aka X rated) and ones offering more support.

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2019, 01:33:02 pm »
Clearly no-one is going to investigate whether a DIY claimant on a sportive was actually signed up as a participant. So AUK might be validating someone who is parasitising an event held on public roads.

The alleged recent case of 'cheating' on PBP is a case in point. A fast finisher was held to be paced by a non-entrant, who went on to post a Strava track describing it. I'm not as bothered about that as I am about similar behaviour on LEL, where interlopers make it necessary to secure access to facilities, giving control staff another job to do.

If people are going to run more lavishly-catered Audaxes, which fill up rapidly, then it's probably not a good idea to allow DIYs on other paid events.

However, I don't really see a problem with Sportive riders carrying Audax cards issued by the organisers. I can see that it might breach ACP rules, but a suitable designation might be found.

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2019, 01:46:27 pm »
WTF has DIYing an event got to do with whether that person is planning to crash it or not?

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2019, 02:12:55 pm »
WTF has DIYing an event got to do with whether that person is planning to crash it or not?

I doubt anyone is going to stop that happening. A previous generation doesn't expect to get something for nothing in quite the same way as the coming one does.

As younger people come into organising, then the model may well change to accommodate 'Generation WTF'. They might just let people do it for themselves.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2019, 03:21:37 pm »
??
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

Re: Registering a Sportive as an audax
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2019, 04:22:09 pm »
Anyone serious about their sportive performance would be exceeding Audax maximum speed.


It depends what you mean by serious about their performance. The Etape Caledonia has about 5000 entrants. I did it in 2012 and have a spreadsheet with the complete list. At 132 kilometres the quickest permissible time would be 4 hours 24minutes at 30 km/h. About 606 people were faster than that. Most of those wouldn't have stopped at all, which works for 82 miles, but becomes increasingly difficult beyond that. So it's not a direct comparison, with a 200 being half as far again.

I'd argue that many of the other 4000 entrants were also serious about their performance, with a lot of them happy to get round ahead of the broom wagon.