Author Topic: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when  (Read 753 times)

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« on: October 12, 2019, 09:26:05 pm »
Quote from: road-runner
Windows 10 does not shut down when you choose shut down; instead it hibernates.
All the better to spy on you my dearie.  Oh. Sorry. Wrong fairy tale. :)

Quote from: ian
Weight it down and drop it in the Mariana Trench.
Correct, but do remember to drive a stake through its CPU as well.

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barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2019, 01:40:43 am »
Windows 10 has done stupid things like splitting the shut down from the sleep/switch users commands which all used to be under the same thing. Confuses colleagues all the time and took me ages to remember.

I can't do anything without googling "how do i..."

I want to degrade to Windows 7 and stay there.

I live in Linux, the world is a less screamy place that way.

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2019, 09:39:26 am »
So how do you get it to shut down completely?

Do what we did in the early days of computing and physically turn it off. 

Desktop pcs in the eighties and early nineties tended to have a red switch at the ba k on one side which was a commonly used power switch.  A common 'quip' by IT Support was  "Have you done a BRS interrupt?". 

Laptops of course lack this useful facility.

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2019, 11:32:21 am »
What I knew as “the engineers reset”.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Mr Larrington

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Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2019, 03:49:05 pm »
Windows 10 has done stupid things like splitting the shut down from the sleep/switch users commands which all used to be under the same thing. Confuses colleagues all the time and took me ages to remember.

Unless the machine is under the auspices of the kind of Thought Police who forbid the installation of unapproved software, the aforementioned Classic Shell puts
  • Switch user
  • Lock
  • Sleep
  • Hibernate
  • Restart
  • Shutdown
back under "Shut Down" on the Start menu.

But I want to find the person who decided that splitting Stuffs at random between Settings and Control Panel was a good idea, and kill them.
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Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2019, 09:45:12 am »
So how do you get it to shut down completely?

Do what we did in the early days of computing and physically turn it off. 

Desktop pcs in the eighties and early nineties tended to have a red switch at the ba k on one side which was a commonly used power switch.  A common 'quip' by IT Support was  "Have you done a BRS interrupt?". 

Laptops of course lack this useful facility.

Mine has it by proxy. The battery is knackered so if you pull the power chord it properly powers off about 2 seconds later :)
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2019, 12:55:42 pm »
I’m having a forgetful day. So far, forgot to put a watch on, forgot the card to pick a package up from the post office & have just realised I don’t have my Costco card, so can’t go food shopping tonight .
Not fast & rarely furious

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ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2019, 10:03:38 pm »
You can shut down (or put to sleep) an iMac with a combination of keyboard presses that I can only remember if I don't try to remember them. The moment I think about the keys, I can't remember precisely which and I have, horror of horrors, have to click the Apple menu which sensibly lists sleep, restart, and shutdown. Of course, with a Macbook, you just close the lid.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2019, 09:35:19 am »
Windows 10 does not shut down when you choose shut down; instead it hibernates.
Er, no, I think you'll find it shuts down. Unless you have done something odd with the user settings.

My laptop definitely shuts down if I select Shut Down. Closes all apps, shuts down the OS. Turning it on again does a full boot.

The Hibernate option hibernates.

Closing the lid puts it into sleep mode.

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DaveJ

  • Happy days
Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 10:09:46 am »
What shutdown does not do, is to close the file system right down.

If you "shutdown" the computer, and then try and mount the disk in another Windows machine, the disk usually end up corrupted.  Linux (Ubuntu is what I mean, I don't know about other favours) is better in that it won't mount the disk.   You can stop this behaviour by turning off Fast Start.  Or you can shut it down from the command line.  Counter intuitively, Restart does actually shut the file system down.

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 11:05:22 am »
I have unfortunately lost the details, but we had similar observations with a network problem on Windows 10.  Once in a bad state, Shutdown and start up again made no difference.  Whereas Restart fixed every time. 

I'm not sure it's quite as simple as shutting down vs hibernating.  I suspect it is more a case of various subsystems which can either reload cached state for faster startup, or fully reset when told to.

To be fair, it does start faster.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2019, 11:53:58 am »
Sadly the windows machine in question is owned by my work and I have no admin privs - which I hate.

I don't use my own Windows install enough to care - mainly when I need TWO screens and proper Word/Acrobat-Pro...

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2019, 01:22:26 pm »
Windows 10 does not shut down when you choose shut down; instead it hibernates.
Er, no, I think you'll find it shuts down.

Perhaps you should explain that to Chris Hoffman, author of the article Shutting Down Doesn’t Fully Shut Down Windows 10 (But Restarting Does).
Now I've read that article, you are still wrong.

Shut down does a shutdown. It doesn't hibernate. It shuts down the computer, saving the system state. That is restored on startup. Just the kernel system state.

That isn't the same as a hibernation.

The disk problem that DaveJ observed is Windows crappy disk management. It has been around forever. Windows 'tolerates' a disk not being unmounted, which can also lead to a disk being locked. Linux enforces mounting and unmounting.
This is one of the reasons why you should *always* manually 'eject' a USB memory stick before removing it, rather than just pulling it out. Ditto for any external hard drive.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 02:35:35 pm »
I haven't done Windows for a bazillion years, but do you still shut it down by clicking 'start'?
!nataS pihsroW

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 04:00:21 pm »
I haven't done Windows for a bazillion years, but do you still shut it down by clicking 'start'?

IIRC it's "Windows" followed by ⏻[1]



[1] The IEC 60417-5009 'standby' power symbol
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2019, 04:07:27 pm »
Windows 10 does not shut down when you choose shut down; instead it hibernates.
Er, no, I think you'll find it shuts down. Unless you have done something odd with the user settings.

My laptop definitely shuts down if I select Shut Down. Closes all apps, shuts down the OS. Turning it on again does a full boot.

The Hibernate option hibernates.

Closing the lid puts it into sleep mode.

Or it is like my work laptop, hit shutdown button close lid

next morning open lid and find that laptop didn't actually shut down but rather closing the lid hibernated the system part way through the shutdown.

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2019, 08:11:18 pm »
Quote from: matthew
....next morning open lid and find that laptop didn't actually shut down but rather closing the lid hibernated the system part way through the shutdown.
I don't know whether to be appalled or impressed by that. Bit of both perhaps?
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2019, 08:26:22 pm »
Windows 10 does not shut down when you choose shut down; instead it hibernates.
Er, no, I think you'll find it shuts down. Unless you have done something odd with the user settings.

My laptop definitely shuts down if I select Shut Down. Closes all apps, shuts down the OS. Turning it on again does a full boot.

The Hibernate option hibernates.

Closing the lid puts it into sleep mode.

Or it is like my work laptop, hit shutdown button close lid

next morning open lid and find that laptop didn't actually shut down but rather closing the lid hibernated the system part way through the shutdown.
If yours is like mine (but it probably isn't) there's a setting you can change somewhere to decide what it does when you shut the lid. Whatever you choose seems to take precedence over the shutdown button.
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Pingu

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Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2019, 08:56:17 pm »
Windows 10 does not shut down when you choose shut down; instead it hibernates.
Er, no, I think you'll find it shuts down. Unless you have done something odd with the user settings.

My laptop definitely shuts down if I select Shut Down. Closes all apps, shuts down the OS. Turning it on again does a full boot.

The Hibernate option hibernates.

Closing the lid puts it into sleep mode.

Or it is like my work laptop, hit shutdown button close lid

next morning open lid and find that laptop didn't actually shut down but rather closing the lid hibernated the system part way through the shutdown.
If yours is like mine (but it probably isn't) there's a setting you can change somewhere to decide what it does when you shut the lid. Whatever you choose seems to take precedence over the shutdown button.

Control Panel\Hardware and Sound\Power Options\System Settings

Re: Windows 10 was: Re: You know you're middle aged when
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2019, 04:01:07 pm »
Windows 10 does not shut down when you choose shut down; instead it hibernates.
Er, no, I think you'll find it shuts down.

Perhaps you should explain that to Chris Hoffman, author of the article Shutting Down Doesn’t Fully Shut Down Windows 10 (But Restarting Does).
Now I've read that article, you are still wrong.

Shut down does a shutdown. It doesn't hibernate. It shuts down the computer, saving the system state. That is restored on startup. Just the kernel system state.

That isn't the same as a hibernation.

The disk problem that DaveJ observed is Windows crappy disk management. It has been around forever. Windows 'tolerates' a disk not being unmounted, which can also lead to a disk being locked. Linux enforces mounting and unmounting.
This is one of the reasons why you should *always* manually 'eject' a USB memory stick before removing it, rather than just pulling it out. Ditto for any external hard drive.

It seems Win 10 shut down isn't actually shut down but is a modified hibernate, ie it closes your open files and programs then hibernates.

Restart does actually shut down then it restarts. I haven't used Win 10 but it seems there are settings to change what "shut down" does.