Author Topic: Wheelchair friendly stations  (Read 679 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Wheelchair friendly stations
« on: October 15, 2019, 03:20:45 pm »
Does anyone know, or know how to find out, how many railway stations are wheelchair friendly? Just a rough, or maybe even precise, number, not details of particular stations. Thanks!
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2019, 04:11:04 pm »
Paging barakta.  Barakta to the bromide brown courtesy Minicom please...

IIRC there's a complicated answer involving an inaccurate database that That Nice Mr Paulley has been asking The Man pointed questions about.  The less complicated answer is "define wheelchair friendly", which is non-trivial in cases where Platform 1 is fully accessible but Platform 2 requires use of a barrow crossing or changing trains at the next station down the line or a lengthy detour outside the station to access the ticket office whatever.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2019, 04:22:15 pm »
What Kim said, basically.

That Nice Mr Paulley says he has some stats he'll send to me when he's next at his PC, the accuracy however is not guaranteed...

Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2019, 04:35:11 pm »
This says 61% provide “step free access”, which I’d take to be utter bollocks.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/how-accessible-are-britains-railway-stations/

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2019, 04:43:43 pm »
I think 61% is possibly accurate - but it's unlikely to be the most useful or busiest 61% of stations. It would probably include the multitude of single-platform rural stations where there is level access straight from the road or car park onto the platform.

According to the 2017-18 ORR statistics, half of the total passenger entries and exits are at just 92 of the total 2,559 stations so there's a very 'long tail' of quieter stations.

(click to show/hide)
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2019, 04:44:49 pm »
The issue with "Step free access" is that it doesn't include things like gap between X or Y (which can be too big for some wheelchair users' wheels) and sometimes stepfree is partial.

That Nice Mr Paulley has spent years poking various entities with a sharp stick cos he knows they're not using the full range of options in the database and that a lot of it is dangerously incorrect.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #6 on: October 15, 2019, 05:15:18 pm »
The issue with "Step free access" is that it doesn't include things like gap between X or Y (which can be too big for some wheelchair users' wheels) and sometimes stepfree is partial.

That Nice Mr Paulley has spent years poking various entities with a sharp stick cos he knows they're not using the full range of options in the database and that a lot of it is dangerously incorrect.

'Step-free' can mean a VERY long detour in some cases. Step-free access to different platforms at a single station can be half a mile apart whereas a footbridge is rather quicker for the abled.

Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #7 on: October 15, 2019, 05:36:30 pm »
I witnessed this when I visited my Mum the other week, a route which takes me through Norwood Junction, the stop of choice for those going to see Palace play at home.
We reached the end of the line at West Croydon, where I change trains to get to my Mum's, when I noticed that there was a wheelchair user who wasn't disembarking.
I enquired whether he had someone lined up to assist him.
He replied that he was staying onboard as he was going to see Palace play.

I didn't twig at first.
But then I realised that he was going back to Norwood Junction so that he could alight on the platform that was at street level (Norwood Junction not having any lifts).
That was just one stop beyond his desired one to the end of the line, so that he could turn around and come back.
It could've been many, many more stops.
Its 2019.
Why are rail companies still delivering this sort of crap?


telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #8 on: October 15, 2019, 05:47:33 pm »
Specifically at Norwood Junction, there is a scheme in the pipeline:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/sussex/upgrading-the-brighton-main-line/unblocking-the-croydon-bottleneck/norwood-junction-station-upgrade/

The bigger answer may be: most of our stations were built by the Victorians where universal access wasn't a consideration, and it costs money to sort this out now.
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2019, 05:54:15 pm »
And politicians etc have repeatedly reneged on promises to improve accessibility as there hasn't been enough prioritising that in the way things work.

Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #10 on: October 15, 2019, 06:07:11 pm »
Specifically at Norwood Junction, there is a scheme in the pipeline:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/sussex/upgrading-the-brighton-main-line/unblocking-the-croydon-bottleneck/norwood-junction-station-upgrade/

The bigger answer may be: most of our stations were built by the Victorians where universal access wasn't a consideration, and it costs money to sort this out now.
It was a bit of a rhetorical question....
That looks a bit similar to what they did at Forest Hill station, not long after it became an Overground rather than a Southern operated station.

Basil

  • Um....err......oh bugger!
  • Help me!
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #11 on: October 15, 2019, 06:17:05 pm »
This says 61% provide “step free access”, which I’d take to be utter bollocks.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/how-accessible-are-britains-railway-stations/

I can think of several stations that are step free on one side only, but require crossing a stepped bridge if you are unlucky enough to be going in the 'wrong' direction. 
I bet they count those as 50%   ::-)
Quote from: Kim
And remember that friends who organise things on Facebook aren't proper friends anyway.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2019, 07:32:31 pm »
Who is this Nice Mr Paulley?
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2019, 07:36:30 pm »
Who is this Nice Mr Paulley?

Disability activist who, amongst other things, won the supreme court case against Firstbus over enforcement of the wheelchair space.

http://www.kingqueen.org.uk/
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2019, 07:46:03 pm »
Network Rail spent £4.5 million upgrading Leyland station a few years ago.

https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/leyland-station-improvements-near-completion

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2019, 07:51:37 pm »
Who is this Nice Mr Paulley?

Disability activist who, amongst other things, won the supreme court case against Firstbus over enforcement of the wheelchair space.

http://www.kingqueen.org.uk/
Thanks.
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2019, 08:38:04 pm »
This says 61% provide “step free access”, which I’d take to be utter bollocks.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/insights/how-accessible-are-britains-railway-stations/
Turns out there's a new system of definition for step-free access, which should be slightly more useful.
https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0018/41517/accessible-travel-policy-guidance-for-train-and-station-operators.pdf
Quote
Appendix B: Station accessibility classification system
Every station must be allocated by operators to one of three categories A-C and described
in public facing information provided by the operator (including station maps, timetables
and posters, and the station accessibility information provided alongside the Accessible
Travel Policy as described in Section 4, A2.2 of this guidance) as follows:
Category A: "This station has step-free access to all platforms / the platform”
Category B: "This station has a degree of step-free access to the platform, which may be
in both directions or in one direction only - please check details."
Category C: "This station does not have step-free access to any platform."
Operators must apply the following definitions to determine which of these three
categories a station will be allocated to:
Category A
The station has step-free access to and between all platforms, at all times trains are
running, via level access, lifts or ramps (in accordance with new-build standards re
gradient/length). Additional station entrances or walking routes not meeting the A criteria
are permitted, providing the additional walking distance to avoid these is no more than
100m.
Category B
The station does not meet category A, but has step-free access to either all platforms or at
least one platform. In some cases, the station may be usable for some disabled and older
people, but in others major barriers may exist which are likely to restrict the ability of some
disabled or older people to use the station. This may include long or steep ramps, access
between platforms that may be via the street, and there may not be step-free access to or
between all station areas.
Category C
The station has no step-free access to any platform.
In its station accessibility information provided alongside the Accessible Travel Policy as
described in Section 4, A2.2 of this guidance, an operator may – for the benefit of
passengers and staff that require further detailed information – choose to further classify
stations in category B according to the following definitions, using the text in bold to
describe the level of step-free access:
Accessible Travel Policy
Office of Rail and Road | 27 July 2019 47
B1. “Step-free access to all platforms - may include long or steep ramps. Access
between platforms may be via the street."
This station does not meet the A criteria, but has step-free access (to all platforms) likely to
be usable by many people with reduced mobility. Access may be via ramps, up to 1:10
gradient (any length). Short end-of-platform ramps may be up to 1:7. Access between
platforms may be via the street, no more than 400m. Access via level crossings is
permitted (if full barrier). Access routes may be via car parks, or short access roads
without pavements, but otherwise routes via the street must include a pavement.
Additional entrances/ walking routes not meeting the A1 or A2 criteria are permitted,
providing the additional walking distance to avoid these is no more than 400m.
B2. "Some step-free access to all platforms - please check details"
This station has step-free access to all platforms, but major barriers exist which are likely
to restrict the ability of some people to use the station. Step-free routes do not meet the A
or B1 criteria (e.g. long ramps steeper than 1:10, or the step-free route between platforms
is greater than 400m). Any station with an ungated or half-barrier level crossing between
platforms is in B2 or lower. Any station where step-free access is only available at certain
times, or only to certain passengers, is in B2 or lower (e.g. because lifts are unavailable
when the station is unstaffed) for example, if the step-free entrance opening times depend
on staff presence at the station.
B3. "Some step-free access, may be in one direction only - please check details"
This station has step-free access to fewer than the total number of platforms
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2019, 10:39:48 pm »
Specifically at Norwood Junction, there is a scheme in the pipeline:

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/our-routes/sussex/upgrading-the-brighton-main-line/unblocking-the-croydon-bottleneck/norwood-junction-station-upgrade/

The bigger answer may be: most of our stations were built by the Victorians where universal access wasn't a consideration, and it costs money to sort this out now.
It was a bit of a rhetorical question....
That looks a bit similar to what they did at Forest Hill station, not long after it became an Overground rather than a Southern operated station.

Norwood Junction is London Overground managed and has six (seven of you count the dead one) platforms. The tunnel between platforms probably wouldn’t allow lifts so that would entail an extensive new footbridge and lifts. Not excusing them, but it’s a hefty cost for someone.
!nataS pihsroW

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2019, 09:52:25 am »
Stolen from Ereslehw and posted here with a suitable dose of  :demon::
Quote
It was wondered what the effect would be if on a Saturday Scope and other disability organisations arranged for two unbooked wheelchairs on all the unmanned stations on the route
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2019, 11:51:17 am »
Quote from: That Nice Mr (Doug) Paulley
Currently, according to the Rail Delivery Group's "Knowledgebase" station facilities database, there are 2,582 stations in the UK. Of those, 1,616 have step-free access to all parts of the station, 954 have step-free access to no part of the station, and 12 stations don't have any step-free access information recorded.

you will immediately spot problems with this data. the most important one is that some stations have step-free access to some parts but not others (e.g. Mytholmroyd which has step-free access to the Hebden Bridge bound platform but not the Leeds bound platform.) How that is recorded is apparently arbitrary as step-free or not.

One issue Doug has been pushing for years is that the Rail Delivery Group Knowledgebase has the fields for various things but are either unused or used inconsistently.

It's one thing to be a cyclist stranded by bollocks data, but for some wheelchair users it's very serious in terms of health as they can't sit in a cold/wet station for X hours for the next train.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2019, 11:57:31 am »
According to the current classifications, Mytholmroyd should be Category B.
Category B: "This station has a degree of step-free access to the platform, which may be
in both directions or in one direction only - please check details."

Of course it's quite possible not all stations have yet been graded on this system and that some might have been incorrectly listed. It's perhaps more likely that faced with a Cat B station, it's hard or impossible to find the details.
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2019, 12:04:49 pm »
It's one thing to be a cyclist stranded by bollocks data, but for some wheelchair users it's very serious in terms of health as they can't sit in a cold/wet station for X hours for the next train.

There's more than a little overlap.  While a cyclist or buggy user might have less trouble getting on and off the train without a ramp than most wheelchair users, there are plenty with disabilities who would be comprehensively defeated by a steps-only footbridge.

Information is power.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

cygnet

  • I'm part of the association
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2019, 12:08:28 pm »
Quote
B1. “Step-free access to all platforms - may include long or steep ramps. Access
between platforms may be via the street."
This station does not meet the A criteria, but has step-free access (to all platforms) likely to
be usable by many people with reduced mobility. Access may be via ramps, up to 1:10
gradient (any length)
.

That is steep - and any length!
Compare with design rules for footbridges which have a recommended gradient of 1:20 and maximum of 1:12 with landings
I Said, I've Got A Big Stick

Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2019, 12:21:49 pm »
This video of gives an example of when a step free access doesn't really mean you can use the station without help!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdZ16SAihl8


(CBH and I almost moved to Broome once...until I discovered how long it took to get from there to that London by train!)
Cats to the left of me, cats to the right of me, cats sitting on my keyboard making far more sense than I do.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Solar powered, tea fuelled cycle-wol
Re: Wheelchair friendly stations
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2019, 12:26:58 pm »
Ah, "All the Stations"! I bet they know a thing or two...
A cup of tea is the perfect bridge between real life and cake.