Author Topic: Economics of getting rid of a car  (Read 4477 times)

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2019, 11:58:32 am »
I don't run a car, partly out of conviction, but mainly because - though I've had a license for two decades now - I've never owned one, so the insurance would be a killer for the first couple of years.

It's only a killer if you're young. As a 40yo with no NCD my first year's insurance (fully comp) was only £400, including my wife as a named driver. It's down to under £250 now after 3 years.

(It's a cheap car though - the car is valued at less than the excess. Parked on the road in SW London.)
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2019, 12:05:49 pm »
Our car, ~£6000 new in 2006. Whatever the VED is on a 900cc car. Insurance about £250/year. It does <1000 miles/year, so a couple of tanks of fuel.

Repairs to date: a new set of tyres and a replacement battery. Get's the usual annual MOT and service. Probably costs us under a £1000/year.
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Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2019, 01:18:14 pm »

For those of you who own cars, what are the economics of your car ownership?

J
I do approx 12,000 miles a year, mixed driving with relatively few longer distances.

Previous daily (diesel):
Cost £1000 (depreciate to 0 over 3 years)
Repairs/servicing & MOT: £500 pa
Tax £300? pa
Insurance: £250 pa
Fuel - 15p per mile. Approx £1800

Current daily (electric):
Cost £17k (2 years on worth at least £14k)
Repairs/servicing/MOT: £200 pa
Tax £0pa
Insurance £250pa
Fuel: 4p per mile. Approx £480

Servicing costs for the EV are high because the EV tyres are expensive. Fronts last around 20,000 miles, backs about twice that. Oh yeah, and I've been an AA member since I started driving and got a banger - £60pa maybe?

Alternatives don't abound with my current job/house. My wife doesn't drive so gets the bus to school, but I drive our daughter (until next year when she goes to secondary school, assuming she gets into a local one), and then go onto work about 15 miles away. Earliest drop off is 8am, latest collection is 5:45pm, so combining that with cycling and working 9-5:30 is basically impossible.
Most frequent longer distances are for doing cyclocross. I don't know if you can get away with a hire car, multiple super dirty bikes and parking in a field. I'm currently wondering if I would have been better off getting a petrol van/pickup and an older EV for the majority of journeys (instead of my 150 mile range EV). Running the math makes the old petrol/diesel cheaper, but I got fed up of having a banger.

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2019, 05:57:24 pm »
For those regularly using Zipcar (etc) what’s availability like when you need it? When I was a member (Years ago) it was a nightmare getting one anywhere nearby at short notice or on a busy weekend.

(Another factor not mentioned is that many of my car journeys involve a dog that sheds white hairs everywhere she goes, which is a car rental return desk’s dream)

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2019, 07:21:33 pm »

For those of you who own cars, what are the economics of your car ownership?

J
I suppose we all could have bought cheapers cars; just like we all could have bought less
expensive stuff, like accomodation, shoes, tvs, phones, etc etc.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2019, 07:45:27 pm »
For those regularly using Zipcar (etc) what’s availability like when you need it? When I was a member (Years ago) it was a nightmare getting one anywhere nearby at short notice or on a busy weekend.

Mostly fine, but I rarely book them at short notice.

Looking at availability for a couple of hours from 8:00 tomorrow morning, two of the local cars are booked out, as is the van in the city centre.

If I want one all weekend, I still have several to choose from, but a slightly longer Brompton trip to pick one up.

Just tried for 20th-30th December, and surprisingly nearly everything's available.  That won't last.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2019, 12:56:19 am »

For those of you who own cars, what are the economics of your car ownership?

J
I suppose we all could have bought cheapers cars; just like we all could have bought less
expensive stuff, like accomodation, shoes, tvs, phones, etc etc.

Say swap the Pinarello for one of these?

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/frames/small-52cm-700c-singlespeed-steel-frame-raw-finish/


I seem to do about 20k miles most years. At that rate, the Tesla will cost less overall than the running costs of it's predecessor over the same mileage. Most of that is a 20,000+ * 18 pence per mile saving (I budgeted on £3,000 per year), but there are other elements and the fact that it's a company lease with no BIK charge from April. It doesn't, however, have a towbar or a cave for a boot, although I understand I can get roof bars.

Duncan, you need to change electricity supplier if your EV is costing you 4p per mile:) Octopus Go seems worthwhile up here - 5p/kWh between 0030 and 0430 and just under 13p/kWh otherwise. That's giving me well under 2p/mile most of the time and the higher days are somewhat offset by free charging when I'm out. I have a loyalty code (£50 each) if you do look into it - https://share.octopus.energy/harsh-shark-130

Mike

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2019, 02:12:47 pm »
But until we realise that public transport needs to be there to transport the public, rather than to make money, it's not going to change car ownership much.
Too true. Integrated public transport in Berlin was great when I was there (91 - 93). I assume there was much
public subsidy to make it popular.

Also economy of scale, but even then it doesn't really cover all options, doesn't necessarily run late enough, early enough, can require routes that go in and then out, etc... and if you want to get to $village, for 0800 on a Sunday, good luck!

J

I can't even get to London for 9 am on a Sunday morning. First train from Bracknell is 8:14 and arrives at Waterloo about 9:10, when it's running and not diverted or rail replacement bussed. When I cook for lunch for church I need to be there for 9:15 or earlier and it's just not possible by public transport without driving to a different rail line.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2019, 10:33:09 pm »
Also economy of scale, but even then it doesn't really cover all options, doesn't necessarily run late enough, early enough, can require routes that go in and then out, etc... and if you want to get to $village, for 0800 on a Sunday, good luck!

I can't even get to London for 9 am on a Sunday morning. First train from Bracknell is 8:14 and arrives at Waterloo about 9:10, when it's running and not diverted or rail replacement bussed. When I cook for lunch for church I need to be there for 9:15 or earlier and it's just not possible by public transport without driving to a different rail line.
[/quote]

Yep, very few (tbh, I'm not sure of any) public transport systems support really early Sunday morning services, and it's a problem.

The pubic transport operators will say it's not economical. But the flaw in that is that for many there will be one journey they make regularly that can't be done with anything but a car, so they hang on to the car, and because they have it, they use it for other trips. It's a bit like how Beeching fucked up many train lines by looking at ticket sales at the station. Not many people buy a ticket from $CoastalResort, but a lot of people do buy tickets to $CoastalResort.

Public transport needs to be run primarily to transport the public. Until we do this, it's gonna be very hard for many to give up their cars.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2019, 11:24:05 pm »

For those of you who own cars, what are the economics of your car ownership?

J
Purchase price £750
Post Bambi repairs £750

Annual costs
Ved £300
Mot £35
Road Insurance £230
Breakdown insurance RAC 80
Fuel, 300 miles to a 60l tank, ~10000 miles a year, and having a trick engine needs 98 Ron or potenter fuel... £1.33 per litre... Is Erm 2.666 grand

So around 3.2 grand a year, as I budget 100 quid a month for repairs and insurance.
It eats roughly 2 tyres a year with the front and back being cycled with swaps from winter to summer and v.v.
Summer tyres around 35 quid off a mate in the trade and 65 for winters

I'd be 440 for commuting bus tickets and around 160 in reading material but an hour and 20 more time travelling a day which I could cycle instead... But the rides shit.

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Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2019, 12:37:19 am »
I can't even get to London for 9 am on a Sunday morning. First train from Bracknell is 8:14 and arrives at Waterloo about 9:10, when it's running and not diverted or rail replacement bussed. When I cook for lunch for church I need to be there for 9:15 or earlier and it's just not possible by public transport without driving to a different rail line.
Yes, if you have to go to a church 40 miles from home and you have to be the one who starts the cooking and that meal has to be something that takes that long and that mealtime has to be that inflexible then of course you have to drive.
Those who choose not to drive have had to make other choices and sometimes compromises to make that a possibility.  I'm not criticising your choice to drive, you'd rightly tell me it's none of my business, I am critical of the idea that it's the only option, though occasionally it is.

Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2019, 09:00:37 am »
Our car costs about £2300 a year, to tax, insure, aa, service, mot, fix the thing that goes wrong, and save up to replace it over 5 years. Petrol I haven’t recorded, and probably varies a fair bit from month to month. We do under 10k miles a year, with almost no commuting. I can justify some of the miles with ferrying people plus brass instruments about on a Sunday, tip trips and collecting my partner from mid Sussex when trains aren’t really working. But there’s some selective memory in that for sure. However, there’s a lot that is with bike unfriendly luggage and/or doing because public transport can’t. When we replaced it last the economics of car club weren’t quite there - but close.

Blodwyn Pig

  • what a nice chap
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2019, 11:30:34 am »
I think the most obvious solution to this debate, is to run the car until it becomes uneconomical to repair / stolen/ written off etc, then cash it in for scrap, then do nothing and see how you cpe for 3-6 months. If it becoms a pain, then buy another small  cheap car, but park it 400 yds away, and save £160 a year x 3 years = almost £500..... :o :o :o.......10 years........£1600.... :o :o :o :facepalm: ::-)

I am a serial 'not paying for parking' person.  I think that honestly, in 20 years of me and swmbo being together, local, holidays, days out, foreign travel, we have paid for parking maybe 9 times, the 10th one, well, we were in St Ives, and could not find a space,so gave in, and pulled into a carpark, only to find someone pulling out of the only available space, wind down their window, and hand me a ticket with 3 hours left on it (in the days  before you had to enter your reg number). Result!   Why pay £160 a year, its not like you use it every day.

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2019, 12:05:13 pm »
I can't even get to London for 9 am on a Sunday morning. First train from Bracknell is 8:14 and arrives at Waterloo about 9:10, when it's running and not diverted or rail replacement bussed. When I cook for lunch for church I need to be there for 9:15 or earlier and it's just not possible by public transport without driving to a different rail line.
Yes, if you have to go to a church 40 miles from home and you have to be the one who starts the cooking and that meal has to be something that takes that long and that mealtime has to be that inflexible then of course you have to drive.
Those who choose not to drive have had to make other choices and sometimes compromises to make that a possibility.  I'm not criticising your choice to drive, you'd rightly tell me it's none of my business, I am critical of the idea that it's the only option, though occasionally it is.

Paul, I understand the choice I make when I volunteer on a rota at that church 30 miles from home. We make a three course lunch every Sunday from fresh, that has to be largely prepared before going into the service at 11. However this is a church that I have had links with for my whole life and where I feel very at home.

My comment was more around on any day but Sunday I can be there by public transport by 7am and be confident the service will operate and not on a diversion.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2019, 12:09:36 pm »
The pubic transport operators will say it's not economical.
Does Mr Freud run those buses?

(I'm kind of amazed no one picked this up before. The forum is slipping.)
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

fd3

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2019, 12:29:17 pm »
In Brum a bus pass is ~£700 a year, trains will be more expensive.  This is what I compare my bike budget to every year, with a view that if I come in under 50% I can afford a "new*" bike every few years.  I have no car and never had one, but my wife has one for emergency driving and trips to in-laws etc.  We probably break even on car hire/taxis, but we have a family of 5 and there is only one small car model that would fit three kids in the back with two car seats.  The car costs about the same as a bus pass every year before petrol, but gets used so infrequently that it still comes in at ~£1000 a year.

*to me
[/I could be wrong]

arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2019, 08:49:14 pm »
Fixed cost = ved, insurance, some MOT
how much per mile of completely unavoidable driving?
Does it cost in over hiring/zip car etc?
tbh I've never done the sums, but with hiring I only have the mental load of 'ownership' during a hire and not the rest of the time. No need to clean/arrange servicing etc at all. Plus I've now discovered you can get insurance instead of going for the generally costly excess waiver.
In the dark, all views are the same.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2019, 08:54:19 pm »
tbh I've never done the sums, but with hiring I only have the mental load of 'ownership' during a hire and not the rest of the time. No need to clean/arrange servicing etc at all. Plus I've now discovered you can get insurance instead of going for the generally costly excess waiver.

This counts as a big advantage for me, especially with living in a vandalism-prone area.

There's a similar advantage to a car club over traditional hire company, in that you only have to make a booking on a website and then turn up, rather than faff about deal with hire company oiks and their unreliability/paperwork/upselling/pedantry.  And you don't waste money on fuel you don't need.  You do occasionally have to top up the screenwash.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2019, 09:03:10 pm »
Does it cost in over hiring/zip car etc?
tbh I've never done the sums, but with hiring I only have the mental load of 'ownership' during a hire and not the rest of the time. No need to clean/arrange servicing etc at all. Plus I've now discovered you can get insurance instead of going for the generally costly excess waiver.
However, there are things that many of us want a motor vehicle for which you would not do in a rental.  Loading it up with great sacks of oozing garden cuttings a couple of times a year.  My fixed costs (VED, MOT, insurance, RAC membership) come to £620 this year and I suppose I might have spent £200 in fuel.  Car seldom moves if it does not do 50 miles or more.  A work colleague was amazed a few weeks ago when I said that I had used my car that weekend (200 mile round trip)  and wasn't planning on using it again until early February.

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2019, 09:23:44 pm »
Duncan, you need to change electricity supplier if your EV is costing you 4p per mile:) Octopus Go seems worthwhile up here - 5p/kWh between 0030 and 0430 and just under 13p/kWh otherwise. That's giving me well under 2p/mile most of the time and the higher days are somewhat offset by free charging when I'm out. I have a loyalty code (£50 each) if you do look into it - https://share.octopus.energy/harsh-shark-130
Ecotricity is basically 15p/kWh. I don't have a smart meter, and I'm in no rush to get one. We have solar, so all summer daytime charging is subsidised (I don't have a Zappi, so it's not properly free), and we do the Feed in Tariff through them too. Plus every motorway charge is half price (that probably doesn't even pay for the coffee!). If I look at moving, I'll use your link,

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2019, 09:36:49 pm »
Isn't all this back to front?

People do things because they have a car which otherwise would not be possible or practicable, eg choose to live in the middle of nowhere with no public transport for miles, travel 40miles to cook lunch on a Sunday morning  etc, and then they say they their car is essential and they have to drive.

The problem with car ownership is it costs you money even if you don't use it. Most people when they've got a car are going to drive everywhere. And why would't they? Public transport, on the whole, is shit. Even in London.


nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2019, 09:43:39 pm »
Last 2 cars (Nissan Almera and Peugeot 307) lasted 10 years apiece. Went mad in March and got a Fiat 500L with 7,000 on the clock for £10k. Done about 12,000 since then. I would love to have gone electric but I'm living on a state pension supplemented by gigging, which is where most of the mileage comes from, and to get an electric that would guarantee 120 miles in the middle of winter (round trip to a gig) is out of my price range. The alternative is to give up what I like doing most and I'm not, at the moment, prepared to do that. I've no idea what my annual costs are. It's unimportant cos I'm going to pay it anyway. Until I run out of money.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2019, 09:45:05 pm »
Isn't all this back to front?

People do things because they have a car which otherwise would not be possible or practicable, eg choose to live in the middle of nowhere with no public transport for miles, travel 40miles to cook lunch on a Sunday morning  etc, and then they say they their car is essential and they have to drive.

The problem with car ownership is it costs you money even if you don't use it. Most people when they've got a car are going to drive everywhere. And why would't they? Public transport, on the whole, is shit. Even in London.
Sort of, but all the jobs that were still doable 5 miles out of town moved into town when mass transport arrived.
That's railways and reliable passenger ships BTW, where I live has been a commuter town for Dundee since the NBR opened a bridge... And then reopened it a few years later.
The next village along was for even longer because the mill owners and other minted non aristocratic people could afford to take the ferry every day and their previous ghetto was getting a bit smoggy for some reason...

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Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #48 on: November 03, 2019, 07:01:37 am »
People do things because they have a car which otherwise would not be possible or practicable, eg choose to live in the middle of nowhere with no public transport for miles,
Unfair to criticise people for this. Having a home that they like is more important. Everything
else is secondary.

Re: Economics of getting rid of a car
« Reply #49 on: November 03, 2019, 09:45:01 am »
but park it 400 yds away

Which is massively antisocial. There is almost no competition for parking spaces near my flat[1] but I have to pay £160/year for that. If I want to park it for free then sure it is only 400 yards but as soon as you get to the border of the controlled parking zone there's very little parking because there's dense housing and lots of cars: https://goo.gl/maps/f6TV1MeUS1WzULMW8

So I could save £160 a year but that would come at the expense of increased inconvenience to other people. I'm not willing to do that.

1. I think I've had to park it more than 20 yards away from the ideal spot about three times in 3 years.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."