Author Topic: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600  (Read 2118 times)

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2019, 05:24:07 pm »
Must a super randonee be completed solo? Or could a few people complete it together.

I believe it's solo.

J

I think the ACP rules allow riders on an SR600 to ride as a group

Quote from: ACP
Riders are allowed to ride either alone or in a group.

Given the hilliness there can't me much chance to gain from group riding in terms of draft but could make all the difference if you're close to packing.

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #26 on: November 04, 2019, 08:51:57 pm »
The exclusion derives from a history of rival French cycling organisations running similar but not identical events/ perms. Riding a route with multiple brevet cards from ‘competing’ organisations in your pocket was banned and remains so to this day. I tend to agree with that approach.

French cycling organisation is probably more sectarian than Northern Ireland politics (or should that be Ulster?  :facepalm: )

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2019, 10:02:28 am »
I believe it's solo.
I think the ACP rules allow riders on an SR600 to ride as a group

I stand corrected. Thanks!

The exclusion derives from a history of rival French cycling organisations running similar but not identical events/ perms. Riding a route with multiple brevet cards from ‘competing’ organisations in your pocket was banned and remains so to this day. I tend to agree with that approach.

French cycling organisation is probably more sectarian than Northern Ireland politics (or should that be Ulster?  :facepalm: )

That must make it dubious if you ECE'd any ACP event.

What if you decided to do the SR600, as the first 600km of a AUK DIY, then do a further 1900km to get home, would that mean the SR600 was invalid?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2019, 11:26:58 am »
Is there a GPX for this ride

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2019, 11:34:11 am »
The exclusion derives from a history of rival French cycling organisations running similar but not identical events/ perms. Riding a route with multiple brevet cards from ‘competing’ organisations in your pocket was banned and remains so to this day. I tend to agree with that approach.
That must make it dubious if you ECE'd any ACP event.
What if you decided to do the SR600, as the first 600km of a AUK DIY, then do a further 1900km to get home, would that mean the SR600 was invalid?
An interesting one, and I think you are correct. Why not do the SR and then DIY the 1900k? I guess you'd miss out on the leeway the
drop from 10 kph to 81/3kph (for 2500km+) offers.
SR Rules: "A Super Randonnée cannot be counted as participation in, or as credit for another event held in conjuntion [sic] with the Super Randonnée."
When I bailed on my SR in Haute Provence this September [https://ridewithgps.com/trips/40285936], during one of the long climbs the following day (way out of time by now) I wondered whether I should have entered a DIY for the first 200 as a 'fall back' - oh, those "points" and AAAx4  going to waste ::-)! But that would have meant contemplating failure on the SR before starting. This is not a frame of mind I recommend to those preparing for a hilly hilly 600.
AUK Regs:
"7.1 AUK events are cycle rides approved and registered with AUK, organised by AUK members and published in the AUK calendar in time for riders to take part. An AUK event may not be ridden concurrently with any other event eligible for AUK awards."
An abroad SR600 is not a AUK event  (@CET's Cambrian 6C SR is (imo))- he sets it up effectively as an agent of the ACP and gets dossards and brevets from Sophie Matter but it's implicitly approved and registered with AUK and published in the AUK calendar (Permanent section). However an SR600 is not eligible and does not contribute to any AUK award.
So the DIY (to claim as completed) would be fine under AUK rules but, as you say, completing and reporting the DIY as completed would render the SR invalid, in ACP's eyes, once the concurrency transgression was brought to their attention - implies info sharing of a standard of which pre-Brexit Europol would be proud.
"Notes" to the ACP SR Rules: "It is also expected that those riding a Super Randonnée fully accept these rules. Any fraud, cheating, or deliberate violation of these rules will result in the exclusion of the rider from all ACP events."
Say goodbye to PBP.

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2019, 11:39:17 am »
Is there a GPX for this ride
Will has put a devilish amount of effort into building this SR. Allow him to conduct his 'reveal' to his schedule, I suggest. You can fairly easily create your own gpx from Will's map and description.
This is (caveat randonneur) the RwGPS route (from which a gpx can be immediately extracted) of the only current SR in UK:
 https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29823510
which will allow you to see the ups and downs, some of which coincide with some of Will's route.

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #31 on: November 05, 2019, 11:52:23 am »
Is there a GPX for this ride
Will has put a devilish amount of effort into building this SR. Allow him to conduct his 'reveal' to his schedule, I suggest. You can fairly easily create your own gpx from Will's map and description.
This is (caveat randonneur) the RwGPS route (from which a gpx can be immediately extracted) of the only current SR in UK:
 https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29823510
which will allow you to see the ups and downs, some of which coincide with some of Will's route.

I appreciate the work that goes into setting the rides up, reason I was asking is so I can compare the ride to the Cambrian 6C which I have a link to the the RWGPS.

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #32 on: November 05, 2019, 03:18:37 pm »
I appreciate the work that goes into setting the rides up, reason I was asking is so I can compare the ride to the Cambrian 6C which I have a link to the the RWGPS.

There is about 50km of shared roads BUT in opposing directions; Bwlch y Groes and the Old Horseshoe Pass to Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant sections.

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #33 on: November 05, 2019, 10:12:12 pm »
Is there a GPX for this ride
'Find' on RwGPS with Tintern as the start and 500+ distance. (Caveat randonneur)

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2019, 11:25:18 am »
Can I ask what may be a stupid question? Where does the 72 hours come from?

As I understand it an SR600 can be ridden at Randonner pace or Tourist pace. Looking at the page linked to is the following; "The requirement for Tourists is to complete the route at a minimum average of 75 km per day." That means 8 days which also ties up with the 3.125 kph minimum speed for the event on the AUK page. That gives 192 hours.

Can somebody explain this to me please?

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2019, 02:00:46 pm »
Where does the 72 hours come from? Can somebody explain this to me please?
Typo - 8 days.
ACP Super Randonnée Rules:
"Super Randonnées are permanents which are organized, verified and validated by Audax Club Parisien. They are located in mountainous areas.
"The length is about 600 km (373 miles) and the total amount of climbing is over 10.000 m (32.800 feet).
"At registration, each rider selects to ride a Super Randonnée either as a Tourist or as a Randonneur.
- Tourists have to complete the SR at a minimum average of 75 km per day.
- The time limit for Randonneurs is 60 hours."

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2019, 04:55:45 pm »
Where does the 72 hours come from? Can somebody explain this to me please?
Typo - 8 days.

Sorry, where is the typo? I have read the ACP rules and as I understand the time limits are 60 hours or 192 hours. I was simply querying the 72 hour limit as I don't follow where that comes from. 

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2019, 05:37:16 pm »
Can I ask what may be a stupid question? Where does the 72 hours come from?

As I understand it an SR600 can be ridden at Randonner pace or Tourist pace. Looking at the page linked to is the following; "The requirement for Tourists is to complete the route at a minimum average of 75 km per day." That means 8 days which also ties up with the 3.125 kph minimum speed for the event on the AUK page. That gives 192 hours.

Can somebody explain this to me please?

Thanks for spotting that. My complete missreading. Doh!

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2019, 06:59:05 pm »
Thanks Will. I'll put it on my list for Spring / Summer next year.

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2019, 03:40:45 pm »
This is 6x Dartmoor devil's back to back, great idea. Ever going to be a calendar event?
The Devilishly Elegant will be a calendar next year on 30th May w/e. Some of the route is different but largely the same. The differences result in a lower 10.25AAA. The ACP SR600 perm will not be allowed to be undertaken on this w/e. Just need to iron a few things out before it goes up.
This 30-31 May 2020 ("route [slightly] different" but with 10 AAA) ride will be up there on the top of the 'scenic 600s' list with Tan Hill and the Brimstone. And iirc very few have completed CET's Cambrian 6C Permanent in the required 42 hours - that's the same route you've got 60 hours for as a SR (but lots more photos on the SR).

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2019, 11:26:51 am »
 ;D

Some of my events are for the many, some the few. The latter being those I really like riding and evidently so do others.

When I test rode it I made it back in BRM time with a respectable 4.5hrs net kip; 5hrs gross including the drunken star gazing interlude...

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2019, 11:19:07 pm »
;D

Some of my events are for the many, some the few. The latter being those I really like riding and evidently so do others.

When I test rode it I made it back in BRM time with a respectable 4.5hrs net kip; 5hrs gross including the drunken star gazing interlude...

Firstly, I really like the look of this route and would love to ride it, but the whole Audax UK points thing for Super Randonnées needs sorting out before I do another one.

The thing I like about the Super Randonnée format is that it is more inclusive, even at Randonneur level. The 60 hour Randonneur time limit might seem too easy to the elite few, but it is still a tough challenge for many Super Randonneurs, even those who have completed rides like PBP or LEL. One of my German friends is an example of this with multiple Super Randonneur series, PBPs and LEL finishes, yet it still took him three attempts to finish the Super Randonnée at Randonneur level that he needed to claim his ACP Randonneur 10000 award.

Also let's not forget that many of the overseas Super Randonnées are much more mountainous than the UK ones and therefore take longer.

I entered the Dolomites Super Randonnée in 2017 before any UK Super Randonnées were available, but I didn't start it until August 2018. Although I had 60 hours maximum, I really wanted to finish in BRM or at least BR time so I could continue my family holiday based in Riva del Garda. For me this meant riding virtually nonstop and carrying all my own food. It was much harder than expected and I only managed 15km/h average for the first 200km. My average dropped below 14.3km/h on the first night and I became concerned about finishing in 60hours, if at all. It turned out there was over 3000m more climbing than the 13000m advertised and the extra climbing meant I had to ride through a second full night but I eventually finished in time and claimed my ACP Randonneur 10000 award.

At that time only one UK rider, marcusjb OTP, had been credited with finishing a Super Randonnée on the Audax UK website and he had been given a well deserved 6 distance points and 15 AAA points for his very tough Super Randonnée in the Pyrenees as an Overseas 600km in 2013.

On returning home I contacted the AUK Recorder to claim my Super Randonnée as an Overseas 600km and expected to receive 6 distance points and at least 13 AAA points. On Strava the climbing was recorded as 16828m so I sent in my GPS track and was awarded 16 AAA points as well as initially 6 distance points. After a while though the distance points disappeared and when I queried this with the Recorder I was told that the Audax UK Board had decided that Super Randonnées would not be awarded any AUK points.

I was shocked and could understand this for Tourist level, but not Randonneur level so I passed on my concerns to the Recorder and he said he would discuss them with the Board. I didn't receive a direct response, but my distance points didn't come back and I later saw on yacf that the reasons for points not being awarded were: -

1. For a Super Randonnée 600km to be validated by ACP it can't count towards any other award than the ACP Randonneur 10,000 award.

2. The 60 hour maximum time limit for a Super Randonnée 600km at Randonneur level (10km/h) does not meet Audax UK standards.

I personally disagree with both reasons not to award the points and think that Audax UK should encourage members to ride Super Randonnées and work towards the ACP Randonneur 10000 award rather than discouraging them. Super Randonnées and the ACP Brevet 10000 award have become very popular worldwide, but so far not many Audax UK riders have participated and awarding the well deserved points would encourage more participation. From my experience Super Randonnées are not an easy option despite the extra time given.

1. The only lines in the Super Randonnée rules that vaguely relate to point 1 above are copied below.

The French Version of the Super Randonnée rules says: -

"Comme pour les autres organisations de l'Audax Club Parisien, la Super Randonnée n’est pas cumulable avec d'autres organisations.
Une Super Randonnée ne peut avoir lieu à la fois en même temps et sur le même parcours qu’un BRM de 600 km."

which Google Translates to: -

"As for the other organizations of the Audax Club Parisien, the Super Randonnée can not be combined with other organizations.
A Super Randonnée can not take place both at the same time and on the same course as a 600 km BRM."

This is different to what it says in the English Version of the rules: -

"A Super Randonnée cannot be counted as participation in, or as credit for another event held in conjunction with the Super Randonnée.
A Super Randonnée cannot be held both at the same time and on the same course as a BRM of 600 km."

Neither of the above versions prevent Audax UK points form being awarded for Super Randonnées. It just seems that participants in Super Randonnées, or any other ACP events (eg PBP) should not be participating in any other event at the same time and a Super Randonnée should not be done when a BRM of 600km is being held on the same route at the same time.

2. Super Randonnées are just hilly permanent rides that have over 10000m of climbing and are administered by Audax Club Parisienne.
    Audax Club Parisienne have decided that the Randonneur time limit for Super Randonnées is 60 hours.
    Audax UK give points for permanent rides at Randonneur level so should give the distance and AAA points for Super Randonnées.






Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2019, 11:25:20 am »
"A Super Randonnée cannot be counted as participation in, or as credit for another event held in conjunction with the Super Randonnée.
A Super Randonnée cannot be held both at the same time and on the same course as a BRM of 600 km."

I read that as credits = points.

Not everything has to be about points. But I do hope to offer it as an AUK perm too, but obviously it won't count towards the ACP Randonneur 10k award.

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2019, 12:13:01 pm »
Personally I agree, just as TINAT has had a 400km ride at BP pace, it's possible to have a randonneur-length ride recognised by AUK that doesn't get any distance points, and I feel that the Super Randonnée should be in this category. As I recall, ACP have changed their SR rules over time (as these originally had a variable time limit based on amount of climbing?), so it's possible a historical decision on eligibility was based on different criteria.

AAA is another matter, as you can collect these for 10km/h+ rides (as per the above example), and it's an award (just like the ACP 10k) not another event so shouldn't really conflict with the ACP rules, but with my AAA Secretary hat on I guess this would need to be incorporated into AUK rules via an AGM motion or similar.
“That slope may look insignificant, but it's going to be my destiny" - Fitzcarraldo

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2019, 03:32:37 pm »
As one who is one SR600 away from the ACP 10000 award, and one who has started two SRs and failed to complete both (CET's Cambrian 6C a month after a 35 hour BCM and in Haute Provence (the original?) three weeks after a steady PBP) I'm interested.
But the discussion on SR600s in general might better be conducted on the thread named as such: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=37784.0 which LWaB resurrected for this purpose.
as opposed to developing 'cuckoo-like' in Will's thread for his SR600 (this one).
I think that AAA points should be available and to so award would not be contrary to the ACP 'non-concurrence' policy: AAA points are not an event.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2019, 06:37:25 pm »
But the discussion on SR600s in general might better be conducted on the thread named as such: https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=37784.0 which LWaB resurrected for this purpose.
as opposed to developing 'cuckoo-like' in Will's thread for his SR600 (this one).
Did he??  ::-)

Well okay - good on him then! :) And good luck with that cat-herding.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2019, 09:49:10 pm »
Meow!  ;)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2019, 10:57:11 pm »
I think LWAB is currently doing some epic ride across his homeland, so I doubt he'll see the internet for weeks.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2019, 11:02:29 pm »
Not I. HK is knocking over the Geelong Flyer but I am slaving away in this chilly hemisphere.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: The Devilishly Elegant ACP Super Randonnee 600
« Reply #49 on: Yesterday at 07:52:31 pm »
After enquiries this will solely be an ACP SR600. There will be no AUK perm version. Enjoy it for what it is  ;D