Author Topic: Carbon wheels  (Read 588 times)

DaT

Carbon wheels
« on: November 05, 2019, 07:29:23 am »
I need to replace my rims (Open pro) soon so I've been searching around the internet at options. My current wheels are a little porky with 36/36h and DA track hubs. I'm tempted by this pair of token wheels on Planet X.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/WPTKT55TKC/token-prime-t55tk-track-carbon-clincher-wheelset

Unusually for track wheelset they are clincher and have a brake surface. Only 1590g for a 55mm clincher wheelset. Am I shooting myself in the foot audaxing on these? If weather would be shite I'd still grab my aforementioned wheels which I'll throw some kinlin rims on.

S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2019, 07:54:41 am »
A few things worth noting

1) The rim is fairly narrow for modern standards, which might restrict the range of tyres you can use to up to 25 mm.

2) Most carbon rims don't offer great braking in wet conditions, which is worth thinking about if you audax all year round. BTW, Where did you read that they have a brake track?

3) 55 mm deep narrow rims are not very good for outdoor windy conditions. They are track wheels, so meant to be used in the absence of...

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2019, 08:02:47 am »
I shouldn't think the weight should put you off, the carbon Dura ace disc wheels Sean Conway used for the record ride across Europe weigh 1610 g. That seems to be about the going weight for premium road wheels, to me.

But yeah beware of the other factors as S2l says.

You might be interested in some of cycle clinic's wheels e.g. https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collections/track-fixed-gear-single-speed-wheels/products/borg31-fixed-free-wheelset
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


DaT

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2019, 08:08:40 am »
A few things worth noting

1) The rim is fairly narrow for modern standards, which might restrict the range of tyres you can use to up to 25 mm.

2) Most carbon rims don't offer great braking in wet conditions, which is worth thinking about if you audax all year round. BTW, Where did you read that they have a brake track?

3) 55 mm deep narrow rims are not very good for outdoor windy conditions. They are track wheels, so meant to be used in the absence of...

I'm on open pro at the moment with 25mm, very happy. The same wheels on CRC says they have a brake track and comes with the pads.

Regarding 3. Is 21mm external similar to my open pros. Does the the rim width effect handling on deep section rims?

My plan is to use them next year doing LEJOGLE supported in 7 days. I'm trying to cheat to get extra speed...

S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2019, 08:15:53 am »
A few things worth noting

1) The rim is fairly narrow for modern standards, which might restrict the range of tyres you can use to up to 25 mm.

2) Most carbon rims don't offer great braking in wet conditions, which is worth thinking about if you audax all year round. BTW, Where did you read that they have a brake track?

3) 55 mm deep narrow rims are not very good for outdoor windy conditions. They are track wheels, so meant to be used in the absence of...

I'm on open pro at the moment with 25mm, very happy. The same wheels on CRC says they have a brake track and comes with the pads.

Regarding 3. Is 21mm external similar to my open pros. Does the the rim width effect handling on deep section rims?

My plan is to use them next year doing LEJOGLE supported in 7 days. I'm trying to cheat to get extra speed...

It's not the rim width, it's the profile. All modern deep carbon rims are rounded, which is not great aerodynamically at almost zero yew angle, but it copes a lot better with any other wind condition in the real world.
In a velodrome, the yew angle is pretty much zero, so it doesn't make sense to use rounded profile rims and deep V ones are better

With extra speed comes extra hassle...

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2019, 08:34:14 am »
Item descriptions on Wiggle/CRC are copy-and-paste spam SEO nonsense. I wouldn’t base any purchasing decision on them.

Also the claimed weight is somewhat on the ambitious side for that spec.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2019, 08:36:36 am »
these will be faster than open pros, if you are riding fast enough. however today i'd be looking at wheels which are optimised for 25-28mm tyre, and that is 19mm internal and ~28mm external width. proper braking track and tubeless compatibility are important features too.

DaT

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2019, 08:42:47 am »
The brake track is in the q&a section on CRC.

To be honest spending just over £400 is about my maximum. I was going to go with Chinese carbon before finding these. I understand 25mm is better and some people like tubeless (has only ever caused me headaches) but these features are out of my price range although I wouldn't mind being proved wrong.

S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2019, 08:48:46 am »
They are track wheels, which you want to use to do LEJoG... you immeditely see there is a problem. Something designed to go in circles indoors and do very low mileage at high speed is being purchased to do the exact opposite.

It's your call, but you might as well buy a skinsuit or an aero helmet, or anything equally inappropriate for the task...

DaT

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2019, 08:56:24 am »
LEJOGLE in 7 days support. I'm treating it as a TT.

S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2019, 09:28:45 am »
Sounds like you've made up your mind...  :)

DaT

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2019, 09:30:14 am »
PX have said they don't have a brake track. Back to the drawing board.

S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2019, 09:41:49 am »
The image doesn't show one and as per above, the CRC blurb looks like some generic stuff downloaded from the Token website, probably from the wrong page. I am not aware of track carbon wheels that come with a brake track.

BLB used to stock some carbon rims called Notorious, which could be built onto track hubs and they have a track. On top of my head they were 200 quid a pop, generic Novatec hubs are about 50, add spokes and labous and you are probably not a million miles off the mark...

Here they are

https://www.bricklanebikes.co.uk/blb-notorious-50-700c-carbon

I did build a few when I was in business


zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2019, 09:42:36 am »
it's a fair challenge, but it doesn't make (much) sense to use a fixie for it. you'll need low(ish) gears for the steep hills and will be spinning out on the downhills before aero wheels start making any effect/gain.
i've attempted a 1200k tt on a flatter terrain last summer on a ss bike, it all went well until it didn't (due to starting fatigued, headwind most of the way). i used 58x19 gear which felt just right, wouldn't want it on the cornish hills though.

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2019, 09:43:06 am »
For my audax fixed wheels I had some hand built by Strada.

I used H Plus Son Archetypes on Ridea hubs.   I'm around 60 kilos race weight and went with 28h rear and 20h front.   They are still as true as when they were built.   The builder has become less keen on archetypes since then but you could build similar with Pacenti Forzas.   I spent around £400 and the weight came in around 1.6kg.


S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2019, 09:46:51 am »
  The builder has become less keen on archetypes since then

Profit margin was low...  :thumbsup:

DaT

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2019, 09:55:17 am »
it's a fair challenge, but it doesn't make (much) sense to use a fixie for it. you'll need low(ish) gears for the steep hills and will be spinning out on the downhills before aero wheels start making any effect/gain.
i've attempted a 1200k tt on a flatter terrain last summer on a ss bike, it all went well until it didn't (due to starting fatigued, headwind most of the way). i used 58x19 gear which felt just right, wouldn't want it on the cornish hills though.
I managed my SR last year on fixed with OK times. Did the Dartmoor devil in 4hrs 50 on Sunday with 72". I can spin up to about 185rpm (my stages say 220 but they lie) this drops to about 165/170 when tired.

I've not rode a non fixed bike any meaningful distance in over a year and don't have the itch to start again yet. I'm sure I will again one day.

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2019, 10:08:10 am »
  The builder has become less keen on archetypes since then

Profit margin was low...  :thumbsup:

Not in the slightest.  He built my last set with 2 sets of archetypes but was unhappy with both builds and eventually said he was unwilling to send them out with that quality and built with Pacenti Forzas instead.  He didn't charge me the extra cost of the Forzas as I had waited so long.

The problem with the archetypes, as I was told, was that as the dyes get to the end of their life the quality drops off.   The builder could see from the batch numbers and had been sending a lot back.

S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2019, 11:06:28 am »
  The builder has become less keen on archetypes since then

Profit margin was low...  :thumbsup:

Not in the slightest.  He built my last set with 2 sets of archetypes but was unhappy with both builds and eventually said he was unwilling to send them out with that quality and built with Pacenti Forzas instead.  He didn't charge me the extra cost of the Forzas as I had waited so long.

The problem with the archetypes, as I was told, was that as the dyes get to the end of their life the quality drops off.   The builder could see from the batch numbers and had been sending a lot back.

I have heard that being the case. Not experienced personally though, between 2013 and 2015 I have built several hundred Archetype rims and never sent one back or had one returned. It probably happened later.

That said, I never understood the drive for Pacenti rims, other than there being a large profit margin on a grossly overpriced rim.

For my own wheels, I use DT swiss rims these days, which seem to have a very good price point and excellent quality.

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2019, 11:20:22 am »
  The builder has become less keen on archetypes since then

Profit margin was low...  :thumbsup:

Not in the slightest.  He built my last set with 2 sets of archetypes but was unhappy with both builds and eventually said he was unwilling to send them out with that quality and built with Pacenti Forzas instead.  He didn't charge me the extra cost of the Forzas as I had waited so long.

The problem with the archetypes, as I was told, was that as the dyes get to the end of their life the quality drops off.   The builder could see from the batch numbers and had been sending a lot back.

I have heard that being the case. Not experienced personally though, between 2013 and 2015 I have built several hundred Archetype rims and never sent one back or had one returned. It probably happened later.

That said, I never understood the drive for Pacenti rims, other than there being a large profit margin on a grossly overpriced rim.

For my own wheels, I use DT swiss rims these days, which seem to have a very good price point and excellent quality.

Yeah this was end of 2018 and he said there had been a slide in quality.   I'm looking at a new set for my geared bike for 2020 and not sure which rims to use this time round.

S2L

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #20 on: November 05, 2019, 11:26:46 am »
Yeah this was end of 2018 and he said there had been a slide in quality.   I'm looking at a new set for my geared bike for 2020 and not sure which rims to use this time round.

Alloy rims are much of a muchness, I don't allow myself to use anything fancier than a DT460, which retails at £ 35, it can be used tubeless and has 18 mm internal width, so works with most tyre sizes on the market. It's a pinned rim, rather than welded, but there are benefits to that type of construction (price being the most obvious).

If I was after aero rims, I'd probably just get something from one of the more reputable Chinese retailers, like Farsport or Light Bicycle Wheels. I did inspect some of their builds and to be fair they were as good quality as anything built bespoke in the UK.

Always difficult to get reasonable price on carbon though...

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #21 on: November 05, 2019, 11:53:48 am »
I need to replace my rims (Open pro) soon so I've been searching around the internet at options. My current wheels are a little porky with 36/36h and DA track hubs.....

You don't say if they are LF or SF but by my estimate

Hubs = ~500g
Rims = ~2x435g
total (less spokes) = ~1370g

spokes can run from ~5g each to ~8g each (including the nipple) depending on length and type; lets say 6g.  But 72 x 6g = 432g so the total wheel weight is likely to be ~1800g maybe a bit less if you choose the right spokes.


If weight is your main concern you can go to ~300g for a pair of track hubs (but they will come with allen key fixings and you will probably need a good chain tug to hold them in the right place) and you can lose spokes, say down to 28F 32R (or fewer if you choose the right rims an you have a good plan for spoke breakage) so there is a 70g (or more) saving to be had there.  So you could get down to ~1500g without too much effort. I'd have said.


If you go for carbon rims there is a weight saving and an aero benefit (which may be appropriate or not for your use depending on the design) and they can be OK.... but cheap carbon rims can crack up and should you come to grief in a pothole and the rims are damaged they are  liable to be both scrap and unrideable.  Clincher carbon rims are significantly more likely to be damaged than similar  rims for tubs. The brakes won't work super-well with carbon rims, and if you are riding in hilly territory this is likely to be important.


So you can even  build a vaguely conventional wheelset that is sub 1000g (with carbon sprint rims) but it is highly questionable whether it would be appropriate for your use or not. 

Personally I'd value the repairability and durability of a wheelset not too far removed from the one you have at present over a small weight saving (likely to be 0.5 to 1.0% of the total all up weight...?) but hey, each to his own and all that.

cheers

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2019, 12:19:22 pm »
one quality of carbon rims which i like a lot (but is rarely discussed) is that bike stays much cleaner after a wet ride. without grey gunk from the rims it's very quick and easy to wash the bike, nothing gets soiled. that's more important to me in real life than a small aero gain they provide (when not racing). same for the disc braked bikes.

DaT

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2019, 12:41:52 pm »
I'm going to build some myself. Mack rear track hub and front road comes out at around 260g instead of 500g for my DA7710.

If I go for something like AL22 or He'd Belgium they should be strong enough for 24/20 with cx-ray? I'm at 67kg at the moment.

That would bring me in at 1.321kg for the wheelset including locking and nuts, not the front skewer though.

Re: Carbon wheels
« Reply #24 on: November 05, 2019, 01:10:29 pm »
that would be close to what I'd do too. However if you are looking to save weight by having fewer cx-ray spokes, subtracting four spokes from each wheel nets a measly ~35g from a wheelset, and approximately nil measurable aero gain.

Wheels without very many spokes soon become laterally flexy; important if you are hauling uphill on a fixed gear on a regular basis.  I'd choose more spokes than that, but there is more than one way to skin a cat.

cheers