Author Topic: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?  (Read 3190 times)

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2019, 12:25:27 am »
I still get hungry, but it's nowhere near as over-powering before.
It used to be impossible for me to comprehend how people could fast for extended periods of time. I would pretty much stop functioning if I didn't get lunch or dinner (I've been able to skip breakfast).
Now it's entirely manageable. I still wouldn't want to fast, but I can now see how it's possible :)

LMT

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2019, 12:00:22 pm »
You’re right, you can choose high quality carbs to eat, it doesn’t have to be processed rubbish. But good quality carbs still give an insulin response.

The good quality carbs I eat (in leafy vegetables) are few enough that this isn’t usually the case for me, I stay under 50g net carbs (ignoring the fibre content) per day. If I eat too many ‘good’ carbs then I get hungry again.

Meh

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2019, 02:06:53 pm »
Good quality carbs do give an insulin response but it's not as sharp as that stimulated by poor carbs.

It's also much easier to overeat poor carbs than good ones.

Protein gets deaminated to carbohydrate and this also stimulates insulin secretion.

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2019, 03:10:44 pm »
You’re right, you can choose high quality carbs to eat, it doesn’t have to be processed rubbish. But good quality carbs still give an insulin response.

The good quality carbs I eat (in leafy vegetables) are few enough that this isn’t usually the case for me, I stay under 50g net carbs (ignoring the fibre content) per day. If I eat too many ‘good’ carbs then I get hungry again.

Meh

Part of the problem with poor quality carbs is not only the incredibly fast insulin spike but the corresponding relative hypoglycaemia which drives lethargy, and hunger.

If you do not get the massive insulin spike then you do not get the relative hypoglycaemia.  However you clearly have no need for any form of diet as you eat sensibly, have a perfect psychological relationship with food and a perfect BMI.  I do not see keto offering you anything.


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2019, 04:28:38 pm »
<much good stuff snipped>
...
Does it have a downside?  Yes, you lose some efficiency/ability for sudden delivery of very high power through a switch from glycogen as the primary muscle power source.  You will never see an Olympic athlete on this diet as they need to have sudden power delivery for a final sprint and they can always refuel adequately.
I don't really agree with this. There are plenty of events where no sudden spurt is required. (a simple example - you hardly ever see a sprint finish in the marathon, and when you do they are hardly putting out 800W.)

Also, plenty of athletes use the "train low, race high" approach. [I'm sure google will find you some citations.] So their training diet isn't damaging their race-day performance.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2019, 07:30:02 pm »
<much good stuff snipped>
...
Does it have a downside?  Yes, you lose some efficiency/ability for sudden delivery of very high power through a switch from glycogen as the primary muscle power source.  You will never see an Olympic athlete on this diet as they need to have sudden power delivery for a final sprint and they can always refuel adequately.
I don't really agree with this. There are plenty of events where no sudden spurt is required. (a simple example - you hardly ever see a sprint finish in the marathon, and when you do they are hardly putting out 800W.)

Also, plenty of athletes use the "train low, race high" approach. [I'm sure google will find you some citations.] So their training diet isn't damaging their race-day performance.
You sure about that?

Might want to check their running speeds.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2019, 09:02:36 pm »
If I was an elite athlete I might worry about losing a per cent or two of top-end power but as a red lantern AUK such losses are more than made up for by, for example, spending less time in co-ops and cafes. :)

LMT

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2019, 10:00:40 pm »
You’re right, you can choose high quality carbs to eat, it doesn’t have to be processed rubbish. But good quality carbs still give an insulin response.

The good quality carbs I eat (in leafy vegetables) are few enough that this isn’t usually the case for me, I stay under 50g net carbs (ignoring the fibre content) per day. If I eat too many ‘good’ carbs then I get hungry again.

Meh

Part of the problem with poor quality carbs is not only the incredibly fast insulin spike but the corresponding relative hypoglycaemia which drives lethargy, and hunger.

If you do not get the massive insulin spike then you do not get the relative hypoglycaemia.  However you clearly have no need for any form of diet as you eat sensibly, have a perfect psychological relationship with food and a perfect BMI.  I do not see keto offering you anything.

You know so much - about so little. :)

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2019, 10:48:48 pm »
I've tried the protein and fats rich breakfast. 4 eggs for breakfast only works because I'm often eating it later in the morning and I'm free to snack pretty much straight away if needed. It's my weekend breakfast. What works for me is no breakfast other than coffee. That's the only start that gets me through to lunch.

Other breakfasts I've tried have been bacon,  bacon and eggs,  bacon and sausage or various combinations of breakfast meats with eggs. Same effect for me. Sometimes if I can't snack through the morning it triggers a migraine for me.

Other breakfasts have been large bowls of wholegrain cereals,  porridge and muesli. Still not a good option but a small bowl of muesli eaten mid morning will get me to lunch. It's often only by then I'm feeling hungry anyway.

For me the best solution is to eat often. It's the only way I can stop quantity of food intake becoming a trigger for migraines.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2019, 10:20:41 am »
My gripe isn't really with keto, whatever floats your boat really, but it's with diets in general. Dieting is a symptom that something is fundamentally wrong with our relationship with food. And keto, in that, follows a familiar pattern. People fall off the wagon, eat a cake or whatever, there's a period of self-flagellation and guilt, and around it goes.

Phrases like 'insulin response' have become totemic, but in context, of course, these are perfectly normal physiological responses. Yes, a balanced diet such strip out most of the refined and manufactured food, it's not necessary and frankly, the other stuff tastes better, I'm not sure the benefits of bland white rice over nutty brown rice. But then we live in a world where people want microwave rice because twenty minutes is too long. Supermarkets, of course, take a lot of the blame – what fresh food they offer is expensive, whereas manufactured stuff is cheap (and of course, given the choice between low margin perishables and high margin boxes with shelf-lives of months, well, that's where we are) – compounded of course, what fresh they do have, it's selected for transportability and persistence, not taste, hence the surfeit of bland fruit and veg.

I'm not sure anyone 'suffers' from hunger. It's normal to be hungry. The thing is, we live in a society where we don't have to be hungry, so the response to eat whenever. One of the best things anyone can do is to stop snacking between meals. It's hundreds of useless calories and when you come to your meal, you won't enjoy it, and instead it becomes another case of stuffing yourself full of calories you no longer need. Combine with a lifestyle that is increasingly sedentary, well, we're not going to get any smaller. The only thing is to start cooking food properly – preparing an actual meal from ingredients rather than shoving something the microwave or oven, or calling up Deliveroo.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2019, 12:42:54 pm »

I'm not sure anyone 'suffers' from hunger. It's normal to be hungry.

You've never had 'the bonk'? Never been so hungry that your stomach hurts, that it is difficult to eat because food makes you physically sick, so you have to restrict yourself to small amounts and wait until your blood sugar gets high enough that you can cope with eating more?
<i>Marmite slave</i>

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2019, 12:54:20 pm »
Scale of hunger:
1)BORED ->2) Peckish -> 3) Ready for Food -> 4) Hungry -> 5) Ravenous -> 6) Bonk/'Black fantin'

Points 1 & 2 are NOT hungry. Point 3 isn't really hungry. Points 5 & 6 are best avoided, either by eating a diet that avoids wild sugar/insulin swings or getting food in on time.

 

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2019, 01:36:40 pm »

I'm not sure anyone 'suffers' from hunger. It's normal to be hungry.

You've never had 'the bonk'? Never been so hungry that your stomach hurts, that it is difficult to eat because food makes you physically sick, so you have to restrict yourself to small amounts and wait until your blood sugar gets high enough that you can cope with eating more?

Yeah, but this is the sort of 'you wouldn't say that if you were climbing Mt Everest' argument unless you genuinely believe the average office worker forced to stuff another Twix down their throat is suffering from serious hunger because they've not eaten anything since the triple-portion of Coca Pops they had for breakfast two entire hours ago. Which is a more realistic modern peril and encapsulates the problem we have. People are perpetually grazing. They're not waiting for lunch.

If your blood sugar is fluctuating so wildly at normal activity levels and with a standard two or three meals a day, then I think it's more a metabolic problem and medical issue than hunger per se.
!nataS pihsroW

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2019, 02:03:00 pm »
Eating at points 1 & 2 on my scale above will cause a rise in sugar and surge in insulin, which can perpetuate a cycle of overeating.

Best to eat at point 4, which should be at least 4 hours since the last meal for a sedentary person.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2019, 03:08:16 pm »
Ian, you seem not to understand that some people's hunger response is in some way broken, that they feel genuinely hungry although they shouldn't be. We aren't all like you, you are lucky enough not to have this, and can say "just don't snack between meals". But if you are ravenous that is almost impossible!

There have been interesting studies done in people who have had a specific type of gastric bypass operation and their food cravings disappeared immediately, although with other types of operation this did not happen. There have also been occasions where thin people given a fecal transplant from fat people end up fat. So maybe something in the gut microbiome has an effect, as does something in the stomach, and maybe many other things. We just don't know enough about it yet.

I can tell you that I have been fat my entire life because I have been eating when I am hungry. It is the hunger feelings that are not reflecting reality (my body doesn't need fuel, it has plenty) and for me, magically, the Keto diet takes this away. This morning I didn't have breakfast and did a non-stop 85km ride in temperatures about zero. Came home and had my salad lunch because it was lunchtime. I just had my salad and a few peanuts and that was it. I am not hungry now. This would NEVER have been the case before.

The Keto diet isn't for everyone at all. But the question the OP gave is who would benefit? I, and a number of others, have said those who have these strong hunger cravings (I compare myself to a Labrador), which is NOT YOU but is lots of other people. So please don't dismiss our lived experiences just because it isn't your experience. If someone else who has these hunger pangs regularly is reading this, then perhaps, just perhaps Keto might help them. Or maybe not. But you only know when you try it.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #40 on: November 11, 2019, 03:26:25 pm »
Ian, you seem not to understand that some people's hunger response is in some way broken, that they feel genuinely hungry although they shouldn't be. We aren't all like you, you are lucky enough not to have this, and can say "just don't snack between meals". But if you are ravenous that is almost impossible!

Yes, it is possible. It takes willpower and discipline - like stopping smoking "cold turkey" does. Problem is we can live without smoking, stopping eating has other consequences!!  But if you stick at it, then the cravings (for that's what it is really, not genuine hunger) will start to fade, just as they do for nicotine. It IS bloody hard though (I know this, because it's what I'm trying to do, without getting into an unhealthy relationship with food), and we as humans like an easy win, hence alternative diets.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #41 on: November 11, 2019, 03:42:18 pm »
Auntie Helen and I are VERY different that way!
I was a THIN kid, given books like 'Wendy Won't Eat' as a treat.



I got ravenous at puberty and ate more than I should later because I wanted the curves the other girls had. I ate a bit to much as a student but never got REALLY heavy.

I bonked out easily when cycling and was unable to move if I cut the carbs, even if I'd been off them for several days. On the road hunger was less a feature than  nigh-paralytic bonk.

I would get a HUGE appetite a couple of days after a long ride.

Now I'm static, I can cut the carbs to small and sensible quantities. I don't hit points 5-6 on my scale, no matter how long I go between feeds.

Things would be very different if I were active.

My weight is within acceptable limits, despite zero exercise for a couple of decades.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #42 on: November 11, 2019, 03:46:52 pm »
Ian, you seem not to understand that some people's hunger response is in some way broken, that they feel genuinely hungry although they shouldn't be. We aren't all like you, you are lucky enough not to have this, and can say "just don't snack between meals". But if you are ravenous that is almost impossible!

Yes, it is possible. It takes willpower and discipline - like stopping smoking "cold turkey" does. Problem is we can live without smoking, stopping eating has other consequences!!  But if you stick at it, then the cravings (for that's what it is really, not genuine hunger) will start to fade, just as they do for nicotine. It IS bloody hard though (I know this, because it's what I'm trying to do, without getting into an unhealthy relationship with food), and we as humans like an easy win, hence alternative diets.
I said it is almost impossible.

I know it is possible as I managed it back in the year 2000 when I did a mega diet with weight watchers.

However, the weight crept back up again as the cravings for me never faded, and you cannot have that willpower all the time - for the rest of your life!!! I managed it for a year or so which was pretty impressive.

The huge benefit of Keto is I don't need willpower as I don't have the cravings.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #43 on: November 11, 2019, 03:54:54 pm »
Ian, you seem not to understand that some people's hunger response is in some way broken, that they feel genuinely hungry although they shouldn't be. We aren't all like you, you are lucky enough not to have this, and can say "just don't snack between meals". But if you are ravenous that is almost impossible!

Yes, it is possible. It takes willpower and discipline - like stopping smoking "cold turkey" does. Problem is we can live without smoking, stopping eating has other consequences!!  But if you stick at it, then the cravings (for that's what it is really, not genuine hunger) will start to fade, just as they do for nicotine. It IS bloody hard though (I know this, because it's what I'm trying to do, without getting into an unhealthy relationship with food), and we as humans like an easy win, hence alternative diets.


Auntie Helen makes a fair point here. I think, but am not an expert, that there may be several elements to this including, but not necessarily all or only:

- Our bodies get set at particular weights and hunger regulating hormones tend to push us back there, from either side. reseting the set weight can be difficult and may need a combination of time, diet change an exercise - all require some effort of will
- sugar addiction is, I suspect, brain based, but again needs effort and possibly alternative behaviours to address
- tiredness stimulates eating and helps breakdown insulin response. Not overworking isn't always easy
- general misery - eating when miserable is pretty common

So, willpower is necessary, but it's not a simple picture

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #44 on: November 11, 2019, 04:43:53 pm »
I used to eat a lot, all the time, and suffer from 'sugar highs' and lows. The original hangry man.
Was put on a drug to treat migraines - it has a side-effect on appetite, appreciating food and hunger. Now, I have to remind myself to respond to hunger. Oh, and the hangry crap went away.
Ian asked 'what is wrong with hunger'. If I don't respond to hunger (and I'm capable of ignoring it, it seems insignificant), I can quite easily not eat. I don't have reserves. I'm under 'ideal' body fat for my age and struggling to keep weight on. Sports performance also suffers. I'd quite literally starve to death while eating as much as I felt like eating. A type of anorexia.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2019, 04:46:01 pm »
I tried the same drug and I not only didn't feel hungry but felt almost completely unable to eat while taking it. I was only on it for about 5-6 weeks cos it broke my brain spectacularly, but it was very weird not being able to get enough calories into myself, especially as I still got "not eating enough" migraine issues.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2019, 05:11:10 pm »
Pneumonia and erythromycin dropped my weight and appetite spectacularly.

Took me ages to get any fitness back!

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2019, 05:47:02 pm »
Ian, you seem not to understand that some people's hunger response is in some way broken, that they feel genuinely hungry although they shouldn't be. We aren't all like you, you are lucky enough not to have this, and can say "just don't snack between meals". But if you are ravenous that is almost impossible!

There have been interesting studies done in people who have had a specific type of gastric bypass operation and their food cravings disappeared immediately, although with other types of operation this did not happen. There have also been occasions where thin people given a fecal transplant from fat people end up fat. So maybe something in the gut microbiome has an effect, as does something in the stomach, and maybe many other things. We just don't know enough about it yet.

I can tell you that I have been fat my entire life because I have been eating when I am hungry. It is the hunger feelings that are not reflecting reality (my body doesn't need fuel, it has plenty) and for me, magically, the Keto diet takes this away. This morning I didn't have breakfast and did a non-stop 85km ride in temperatures about zero. Came home and had my salad lunch because it was lunchtime. I just had my salad and a few peanuts and that was it. I am not hungry now. This would NEVER have been the case before.

The Keto diet isn't for everyone at all. But the question the OP gave is who would benefit? I, and a number of others, have said those who have these strong hunger cravings (I compare myself to a Labrador), which is NOT YOU but is lots of other people. So please don't dismiss our lived experiences just because it isn't your experience. If someone else who has these hunger pangs regularly is reading this, then perhaps, just perhaps Keto might help them. Or maybe not. But you only know when you try it.

Any discussion about whether diet x will benefit while be biased towards those who feel they have benefited. I'm not arguing with that. I'm making the point that I think diets are generally the problem and symptomatic of a deeper issue in our relationship with food. That's not a personal criticism; not that you need my blessing, if it works for you, then I'm genuinely happy and you should go with it.

Our relationship with hunger is broken. It's hardly a surprise that with the ready availability of large quantities of (often poor quality) food people get heavier. Yes, there will be metabolic outliers and we blame genetics, the gut microbiome, carbs, advertising, but at the end of day, we get larger because we eat more and we control what we eat. If that's not the case, then we may as well all give up and become eating machines.

Honestly, I get a bit annoyed with the entire 'it's easy for you' argument. It's not. I used to be fat and I was fat because I ate lots of food. Yes, I was hungry all the time and yes, I ate all the time. I didn't magically stop being hungry when I lost weight. I still want to eat all the Hobnobs in the world right now. But I've acknowledged that I can't do that and stay healthy (and I don't buy snacks because frankly, if they were there I'd eat them). So yes, I have to watch what I eat and I have to exercise. The alternative would be a lot easier.

Also, there are downsides to any diet. Keto (though the definitions seem to vary) envisages a significant change to your metabolism, humans don't generally run in that mode, and I don't know what the long term outcomes of running a body like that are. No one does. Diets with large contributions of protein and fat may have significant negative effects (and this is true of any unbalanced diet). Also there's the environment impacts. There's nothing inherently harmful about carbohydrates, human civilization has developed in lock-step with farming and available sources of carbohydrate. I appreciate that not every advocate of keto is out to demonize carbs, but it comes across often enough.
!nataS pihsroW

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2019, 06:13:53 pm »
Storable carbs brought us literacy, commerce and culture.
Hunter-gatherer societies are seldom able to record wisdom and pass on any knowledge between multiple generations.
The 'diseases of civilisation' attack those whose lives are not 'nasty, short and brutish'.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2019, 06:34:13 pm »
Scale of hunger:
1)BORED ->2) Peckish -> 3) Ready for Food -> 4) Hungry -> 5) Ravenous -> 6) Bonk/'Black fantin'

Discounting 1, 2 is what I'd describe as "hunger".  I'd replace 3 with "obvious gurgling / acid reflux effects from empty stomach that might be satiated by application of food".  4 and 5 don't exist, but I'd insert a state at about 5.5 where nausea means you actively don't want food.  6 is completely disconnected from food, other than at an intellectual level.

Once I get past 3, it's easy to simply not eat, unless I do something physical that takes me to 6.

I think I'm broken, even before all the psychological fuck-ups.  I remember during some biology lesson in primary school not knowing the correct[1] answer to "how do you know when you need to eat".


[1] By which I mean I literally couldn't explain it, not that I wasn't sure how to dumb the answer down to teacher-appropriate level, as was often the problem with SCIENCE questions.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...