Author Topic: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?  (Read 2378 times)

Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« on: November 08, 2019, 09:37:17 am »
There's already posts on here but simply put they're very long and too late to get into. Besides they're more reporting threads now so I thought I'd start a new thread for my questions.

Who is a keto diet good for?

Reading about it the emphasis seems to be weight loss. I'm my ideal weight and don't need diets. I'm interested in benefits for migraines. Also wonder if they're good for IBS symptoms.

What about low energy? If I miss out on carbs for one meal such as breakfast,  I'm shaky with low energy before lunch. I know because I often have 4 eggs for weekend breakfasts. If I don't eat 2 slices of buttered toast with them I'll not last to lunch.

So many questions and that's before I get to cost over normal,  balanced diet and recipes.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2019, 12:30:40 pm »
A keto diet can be good for almost EVERYONE.
It might reduce likelihood of developing type 2 diabetes, reduce visceral fat and other metabolic woes.
Energy swings are reduced because the blood sugar does not swing wildly with eating, as fat is the principal source of energy.
As few carbohydrate food are eaten, the fermentable type that might worsen an irritable bowel are spurned.

That's some of the theory.

My take is some people eat more carbs than might be advisable and should reduce their intake. For myself, I like my carbs but consume far less than previously.

I like them too much and have too few actual/potential health issues (weight OK, ancient antecedents, little family history of diabetes) to give them up.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2019, 12:37:39 pm »
But you can say the same of a balanced diet, and there's no real counters to that, because we know a balanced diet is healthy. There's no good-quality evidence that 'keto' has many of the benefits claimed, and the downside is that you're consuming lots of proteins, fats etc. that are may well come with long-term adverse effects. Fair enough, if you like it, go ahead.

Tbh, if I were shaky after not eating for a few hours, I'd probably get myself to a doctor pretty sharpish.
!nataS pihsroW

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 12:52:11 pm »
I used to eat a balanced diet but unfortunately was always fat and hungry. The balanced diet including carbs was not working for me. I now eat a very healthy Keto diet with few carbs (almost all from vegetables and berries), no refined food or sugar.

Since going on Keto 10 months ago I have noticed these benefits:

Not constantly thinking about food, eat only two meals per day and almost no snacking
Clearer head the whole time - no sleepy afternoon dip
Excellent sleep at night. I go out like a light and wake up full of energy.
Less bloated feeling a lot of the time, comes back as soon as I eat carbs
Can cycle/walk long distances without fuelling. 100km cycle ride easy with no stops/snacks as energy is constant. Previously had to have cake after 40km.
Farts have zero smell
Some spots on the skin around my face cleared up (milia?)

Disadvantages:
My hair has become less fluffy. It seemed to be thinning in the first few months (this is normal for Keto) but that stopped, it just doesn’t have as much bounce
Heart rate lower - average when cycling around 110 whereas before it was 130. Burning fewer calories?
Blood pressure lower, sometimes I have postural hypotension
If I eat some fruits I get terrible gut gurgles as it seems I don’t have the microbes to deal with them now (very fibrous melon is a problem)
I had to buy a complete new wardrobe as I am now 2-3 dress sizes smaller

It’s been a real change for me as I was always fat because I was always hungry. And I really was hungry. Now I am on Keto and I am no longer hungry I have this amazing sense of freedom - and have lost 20kg this year without calorie counting. Our food is actually tastier and healthier now.

My partner is clearly less carb-sensitive. He doesn’t have the ‘Heißhunger’ that I have when eating carbs again (I am ravenous and have to eat again after 2 hours) so he is much more relaxed about cheating with carbs. He didn’t need to lose weight and hasn’t really done so (he does eat a lot of Haribo!) but his skin seems better and his high blood pressure reduced enough that he was able to stop taking his tablets.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 12:56:30 pm »
TBM, re needing food again after your toast-free breakfast, that’s because your body hasn’t learned to burn the alternative fuel source ketones yet. The first 3 days on Keto are hard as your body is used to burning glycogen. After 2-3 days you suddenly realise your hunger pangs have gone away.

I have 3 eggs for breakfast at the weekend - with butter, bacon and Creme fraiche - and wouldn’t need anything until the evening. I have no breakfast during the week, I have lunch at 1 and dinner at 7. When eating carbs I need breakfast by 8 at the latest.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 01:47:57 pm »
I used to eat a balanced diet but unfortunately was always fat and hungry.

I'd suggest then, that it wasn't truly a healthy balanced diet.  But if Keto works for you, fine.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 02:09:44 pm »
I used to eat 150g+ dry weight of basmati or long grain white rice with a meat based sauce every evening.  No breakfast and 4 slices of bread with cheese and pickle for lunch
I'd eat crisps and chocolate bars at breaks between them. Overall I'd say 4500 to 5000 kcals per day, every day. My base metabolic requirement was 3500 to 5500 kcals depending on my activity that day. That's according to online calculators

That happened after getting my own place and no longer living at my parents sharing family meals made for my parent's needs. I went from BMI 16 to 17 and rose to 23. I decided that was too high for my preference so decided to lose weight. I dropped a few bags of crisps and chocolate them switched my gym workouts to more cv than weights. I dropped 2 stone to achieve about 86kg and been like that for 15 years.

I have a consistent weight and my personal habit is such that my intake goes up and down according to activity levels and needs.

I say this because weight control is completely individual. Not everyone can work with every diet system. Keto worked fot you.  I don't think three diet itself is the real reason more that the approach suits you if that makes sense.

For example,  5:2 diet system. I know people who shed weight and then maintained the target weight by following it religiously. I know others who simply cannot operate on the fast days so gave up. They could have made it work and given time they would get used to the fast days, but they decided to give up on it.

My view on keto is that it's really just another form if controlling calories and quality of intake. Eat well and the right calories and I believe you'll get to and maintain an ideal weight for you. Just pick your system.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2019, 02:27:22 pm »
It’s been a real change for me as I was always fat because I was always hungry. And I really was hungry. Now I am on Keto and I am no longer hungry I have this amazing sense of freedom - and have lost 20kg this year without calorie counting. Our food is actually tastier and healthier now.

I don't do keto (except before it was cool, when I was a borderline-anorexic teenager), but I certainly get the eating-causes-hunger effect.  If I eat breakfast, I'll want to eat all day, where otherwise I can go until the evening without really being interested in food.  After an evening meal, I'll want to nibble things until bedtime.

Low energy only if I'm doing something physical - if I'm going to spend all day on the bike, I'll probably need some fuel, which I tend to do by numbers because cycling suppresses my appetite.

Postcholecystectomy syndrome complicates things - if I go too long (awake) without eating small amounts of fat, I tend to get diarrhoea.

I reckon a keto diet would work well for me, but I don't need to lose weight, and I'm wary of going off food entirely again.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2019, 03:18:13 pm »
As the OP seems to have irritable bowels (I suspect many do, to some degree) a low FODMAP diet might be more helpful than strict keto, though there is some overlap. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FODMAP

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2019, 03:54:15 pm »
isn't a keto state a state of emergency, a backup energy system for our survival in the times of scarcity? looking at the healthiest and highest life expectancy nations (e.g. spanish, french, japanese) - how popular and widespread are these diets over there?
i've been in keto state before, after illness, and best i could describe it was a state of hibernation - gentle, calculated moves and no desire for anything intense, which would leave me out of (keto)breath.
carbs are the main and key energy source for anyone into sports or vigorous activities - fats simply cannot release energy fast enough. this is not to say that keto diet suits no one. for some it works ok, but balanced diet (based on whole, not junk, foods) will always be richer in nutrients, vitamins, minerals and provide more energy and vitality.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2019, 05:01:19 pm »
In my experience, the Japanese don't tend to diet. The French are getting lardier with a swing towards the Quickie burger, but they seem to offset it with a stubborn resistance to 'stop smoking' campaigns.

Americans are massively lardy simply because they eat vast quantities of everything, not because they ate a carb. They ate all the carbs. Then worked through the rest of the food groups.

Ketosis is generally a starvation response. I wouldn't say it's normal to be in such a state for long periods (but I doubt anyone knows, and in reality, I expect few people who claim to be 'keto' are actually in ketosis, in the studies were people have looked at the effect on things like epilepsy, the diets are very restrictive).

Hunger is a normal state and I think we need to accept it – it's normal after a few hours to be hungry. Yeah, it takes will-power not to snarfle a pavement slab of Dairy Milk the moment hunger gives you a gentle poke. But it's hunger that makes you appreciate food. I'm hungry now, it's been five hours since I ate a modest lunch (salad and fruit). I'll be hungrier after I've cycled 20 miles home. But I'll appreciate my dinner when I get it (about 10pm).

Farting is also normal. Some foods being fartier is normal (I can't eat celeriac, Jerusalem artichoke, spelt flour, and most beans without unleashing a fragrantly terrifying zephyr of extraordinary proportions). Sometimes, in the words of the song, you have to let it go. Frankly, who doesn't enjoy a good fart, provided of course, it's your own.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2019, 06:21:03 pm »
I always wonder what people mean by a "balanced diet".  Balanced for whom and when in history?

We used to be scavengers eating whatever we could gather or kill, then we became mainly agrarian farmers with a few cousins still hunting.  Some of us lived in warm countries and some in cold.  Some of existed for a winter on walrus fat and rotten cod, others on olive oil and calamari (the lucky ones)

But remember that white rice, unlimited pasta and white bread cannot be part of a "balanced diet" as they are essentially a product of the last 150 years or not part of western food.  Even the potato has only been around for 400 years which is a mere blip in evolutionary terms.

Are there at least two energy pathways - yes.

Does one primarily work through carbohydrate metabolism and muscle glycogen and the other through free fatty acids?  Yes

May one be more associated with easier satiety than the other?  Possibly

Does the keto diet include all food groups?  Yes

Does it essentially reduce the proportion of refined carbohydrate? Yes

Do most of us lose weight easily on this diet and have more sustained energy production?  Yes

Does it have a downside?  Yes, you lose some efficiency/ability for sudden delivery of very high power through a switch from glycogen as the primary muscle power source.  You will never see an Olympic athlete on this diet as they need to have sudden power delivery for a final sprint and they can always refuel adequately.

I am not going to reccommend it to you. You are intelligent enough to read the books by noakes and others, decide if the biochemistry is true and then decide if the advantages outweigh the downsides of the eating plan for your lifestyle and needs.

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2019, 06:30:31 pm »
I can't compete with Chris' logic but from my personal experience I didn't last more than a couple of weeks on Keto because I felt lethargic, it felt like my digestive system ground to a halt and I and struggled with sustained exercise (rowing and cycling).  It's also bloody expensive. 

We watched 'gamechangers' a couple of weeks ago on netflix and we had a bet to see who could last longest as a vegan and I'm absolutely loving it - I feel better, it's much easier to cook (variations of rice / beans / chickpeas / lots of veggies and fruit smoothies) and my cycling has suddenly got quicker so we're almost the same pace - I also got some new wheels which are probably most of the difference, but the engine has to count for something...

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2019, 07:51:14 pm »
I forgot to add as the corollary of my first couple of paragraphs that actually it probably is not ideal for everybody.  The variation in muscle fibre type, response to training, etc probably mean that some can make use of such a diet and some cannot.  Not good, not bad just individual genetic variation.

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2019, 09:56:09 pm »
Migraines issue aside, this is my experiences from 6 weeks on keto:

- Much easier to skip meals. I don't get the 'must...eat..now!!!", once I was 30 mins past dinner time.
- No post meal slumber!. Productive meetings after lunch are actually possible!.
- Better focus. Especially later in the day
- weight loss.
- broken the sugar addiction.

Cons:

- limited lunch options when I didn't bring my own.
- requires more planning.
- lower endurance during exercise. This, some say, may recover as you adapt. (can take months).

Even without the migraine improvements, it's been well worthwhile. I eat better meals, where as previous 'diets', as always felt like a compromise. Here, you'll have a meal and you don't think you missed out.
I've lost weight easier than ever before.
It's also easier as keto is fairly black and white when it comes to carbs/sugar.

If you're interested, I want pass on Auntie Helens recommendation and check out dietdoctor.com. It's a terrible name, but their 2 week (free if you give them your email) guide takes you by the hand and guides you through it.

Do I miss stuff? Sure...do I crave it? No!.

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2019, 12:02:45 am »
It's pretty much the only way you can lose weight whilst feeling like you're stuffing your face. (Other mileages may vary).

My diet is MUCH healthier when carb-limiting; much more veg/whole food - despite the meat-a-thon.

I found my "top end" (such as it is) disappeared for a while. I could chug along well enough, but hill climbing? Ugh!
That does improve if you stick with it, though as Jakob says - it could take a while.

LMT

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2019, 10:59:36 am »
It's pretty much the only way you can lose weight whilst feeling like you're stuffing your face. (Other mileages may vary).

My diet is MUCH healthier when carb-limiting; much more veg/whole food - despite the meat-a-thon.

I found my "top end" (such as it is) disappeared for a while. I could chug along well enough, but hill climbing? Ugh!
That does improve if you stick with it, though as Jakob says - it could take a while.

You sure about that? That's quite an assertion you are making there, unless it is of course your opinion and thus anecdotal.


Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2019, 11:32:47 am »
If it helps, I'll second Chris opinion

I'm back on the keto wagon, and look and feel much better for it 😎

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2019, 11:37:52 am »
Ref the original post, I'm one of those people who like to eat breakfast every day, so its mostly egg an bacon or Greek yoghurt. But on the bike my appetite disappears and can go most of the day without eating.

Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2019, 12:49:30 pm »
It's pretty much the only way you can lose weight whilst feeling like you're stuffing your face. (Other mileages may vary).

My diet is MUCH healthier when carb-limiting; much more veg/whole food - despite the meat-a-thon.

I found my "top end" (such as it is) disappeared for a while. I could chug along well enough, but hill climbing? Ugh!
That does improve if you stick with it, though as Jakob says - it could take a while.

You sure about that? That's quite an assertion you are making there, unless it is of course your opinion and thus anecdotal.

Of course it's my opinion and anecdotal - I thought the "other mileages may vary" implied that.

OK, let's try this then: In my experience, if I have a bowl of cereal in the morning, I'm hungry again by lunchtime, but if I have some sausage bacon and fried mushrooms, I'm good 'til evening. Fat and protein takes longer to digest and is more energy dense - I'm quite prepared to believe I have a lot more calories in the fry-up, so it's hardly a surprise it lasts longer, but equally - I bet my insulin level is much more stable, and to my mind, that's an appetite leveller.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2019, 04:42:52 pm »
It has become very clear to me in the last year or so that people are all different (who knew!!)

Some people don't suffer from hunger when they eat the standard western diet. These are the people who might be so busy at work they forget to eat. That always sounded completely unrealistic to me, I would NEVER forget to eat. In fact, during the day I would always be planning where to eat, and when visiting friends overnight I always took some supplies with me in case they didn't feed me enough. As a child I always had 'midnight Frosties' (supper, in other words, just before bed) as I was hungry.

I may have felt hungry but my body wasn't really hungry, but that isn't something you can do much about.

So for me, the miracle of my hunger pangs disappearing is what makes Keto so suitable for me. And the poster above is right, I doubt I am in ketosis now (eating too many carbs), but I am eating low carb enough that the hunger doesn't come back.

And yet for other people, who aren't hungry two hours after eating a big meal, this benefit of Keto eating choices means nothing.

The OP asks who benefits from Keto? I think one clear group are the 'labradors' like me who are always hungry. We are usually fat because we are eating when it isn't necessary, and even if we are eating the right things (I used to often snack on fruit), too much of that means too many calories and getting fat. People used to say that a bowl of porridge would fill you up till lunch - no chance for me, I was hungry again an hour later.

Other groups who might benefit are the epilepsy/headache/diabetes people, or people who need sustained energy all day without troughs and spikes. For those who need explosive power in their fitness plans then it's not going to be good for quite a while.

The upside of this way of eating for me is that the food we eat is very unprocessed - and we don't have to look for the Low Fat versions of everything in the supermarket. I have been a lifelong teetotaller so don't miss the beer which I think could be an issue for lots of people. I just drink water and tea (I have had to cut out the orange juice).

There is no harm in the Keto diet, it works really well for certain groups of people, and isn't necessary for others. Choose if you want to do it. But please DON'T tell me that the hunger/not hunger thing is in my head, as it certainly isn't. I and many other fat people who do Keto can show you that there really is a difference, and for us this is the key.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2019, 07:34:48 pm »
i just want to reiterate that having carbs in one's diet does not equal to eating the worst and super-processed foodstuffs (sugar laden cereals, biscuits, fizzy drinks, long shelf life cakes, cardboard bread etc. - no one should consume these, really). it's all well and good if keto diet consists of unprocessed whole foods. adding good quality carbs can only enrich it, both in terms of energy and variety of nutrients.

"standard western/american diet" should not be taken as a reference - i assume most of us here are enlightened to accept that it is good for no one's health.

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2019, 08:56:57 pm »
You’re right, you can choose high quality carbs to eat, it doesn’t have to be processed rubbish. But good quality carbs still give an insulin response.

The good quality carbs I eat (in leafy vegetables) are few enough that this isn’t usually the case for me, I stay under 50g net carbs (ignoring the fibre content) per day. If I eat too many ‘good’ carbs then I get hungry again.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2019, 12:06:43 am »
Insulin response is being talked of as if it's bad thing. It happens naturally in the body and it's happening whether you have a lot or little in the way of carbs surely. Keto diet doesn't completely exclude carbs so sugars get into the blood. The body manages it if not through insulin response then how? That bit confused me the way keto dieters talk about it as if their diet stopped it.

Auntie Helen describes a pattern of food related behaviour I've never had and I don't really know anyone in my family who does. We don't forget to eat,  we aren't always planning when we're going to eat our next meal. Simply put we tend to eat at regular times,  we eat regular meals and don't take emergency supplies when visiting friends. Imho there's an unhealthy relationship to food going on. If keto resets that for you then great.

I think that's possibly the biggest part of any successful diet.  It resets your food habits to a healthier place. Whether that's through a healthier intake,  healthier quantity or healthier mindset about foods.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Keto Diet - who would benefit from it?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2019, 12:12:56 am »
OK, let's try this then: In my experience, if I have a bowl of cereal in the morning, I'm hungry again by lunchtime, but if I have some sausage bacon and fried mushrooms, I'm good 'til evening. Fat and protein takes longer to digest and is more energy dense - I'm quite prepared to believe I have a lot more calories in the fry-up, so it's hardly a surprise it lasts longer, but equally - I bet my insulin level is much more stable, and to my mind, that's an appetite leveller.

OOI, what happens if you don't have any breakfast?

I tend to find any breakfast means I'm hungry by lunch time, though I haven't thoroughly tested what happens if it's protein and fat.  (Usually if I'm eating breakfast at all, it's because I need fuel for some impending physical activity, which means carbs, or eating whatever I have easily to hand to alleviate some digestive/medication issue, which means carbs.)

(I'll be the first to admit to an unhealthy relationship to food.  There's so much social baggage attached to it, and thanks to my parents I'll never be rid of the idea that I'm a fundamentally bad person for not eating the things people want me to.  But I also have a weird relationship to hunger, as I went for so long without feeling it.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...