Author Topic: TCR no8.  (Read 13316 times)

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #50 on: November 26, 2019, 09:07:48 am »
everything costs money but tcr does not have to be expensive.
 Costs are probably comparable to doing 12-15 UK audaxes.
 Food is cheap east of Austria, as are hotels.

That can vary a lot... I can do my local BP for 7 quid all included, or I can do a remote 600 which is going to cost me well in excess of a 100 pounds all in.

I'm not saying you have to earn 6 figures to do TCR, but I don't think you can do it if you clock shifts at Deliveroo either. Money is an entry barrier.
It is no coincidence that Apidura, Rapha and other premium brands thrive out of this and similar events


I meant a dozen all day rides with a bit of travel and a decent amount of food.

But Chris White has analysed this stuff to death.  He reckons €1200 is the minimum.  Someone could go lower, but it would start to get a bit extreme and you need some contingency if you have to pack or if you get caught in a storm and need to dry out, etc.
https://ridefar.info/races/costs/

Not everyone uses kit from the sponsors. I don't: there are plenty of alternatives and some are much less expensive.  I have used Apidura kit but have found other stuff to be better for my specific needs. 

S2L

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #51 on: November 26, 2019, 09:14:56 am »

But Chris White has analysed this stuff to death.  He reckons €1200 is the minimum.   

Not a million miles from my back of an envelope calculation of £ 1600 at current exchange rate.

Now, back to the point, if one is prepared to invest north of a thousand quid in the event, plus the inevitable cost in preparing for the event (clothes, bags, maybe bits for the bike like new tyres, new cables, new chain, new cassette, new bottom bracket and whatnot, maybe a few long events in preparation for the main event)... I don't understant how the same person could complain about having to spend £ 25 to enter a ballot.
When you buy a ticket for the lottery is not that you ask for your money back if you don't win. That is not an entry barrier to anything

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #52 on: November 26, 2019, 09:16:37 am »
Re the entry fee, its been put in place to discourage places being taken up by riders who are hedging bets and not totally committed to race.
 I appreciate that 25 quid can mean different things to different folks and Im sure that the team thought long and hard about just how to go about addressing it as sensitively as they could. I doubt if anyone could come up with a perfect scenario to resolve the issue of no shows.
  The  organisation are hyper aware about being inclusive. There are multiple examples of this in the race ethos from encouraging the inclusion of female racers until parity is reached, to spreading the net as geographically and culturally far as they can.
To that end the manual states that the excess from the application fees will be used as a bursary to assist under funded riders.

On to other things.. whats the deal with all the attention on the pave? How bad can a few km of cobbles be on a slow moving endurance bike? But then Ive never done pave.

I'm sure they thought about it and considered other solutions but it does seem odd. 

What is the issue: is it people deciding not to ride at the last minute (no shows) or people declining their place immediately after being offered one and before they have paid? 

If people no-show after paying £350 then bringing forward £25 is hardly going to change things, so I assume it isn't that. With people who decline before they have paid, it would be early enough to run another ballot on those who had missed out and make a second round of offers.

EDIT
What it might be is exactly that - people hedging bets because they might be trying for other events.  I think last year the entry window might have overlapped with SRMR and  some people may have applied for both in the hope of getting one.  With more events coming along and also with less chance of getting a place, hedging bets becomes a more rational strategy. 

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #53 on: November 26, 2019, 10:05:57 am »
What is the issue: is it people deciding not to ride at the last minute (no shows) or people declining their place immediately after being offered one and before they have paid? 

It's this. People being offered places, but then not even making the first payment.

Quote
EDIT
What it might be is exactly that - people hedging bets because they might be trying for other events.  I think last year the entry window might have overlapped with SRMR and  some people may have applied for both in the hope of getting one.  With more events coming along and also with less chance of getting a place, hedging bets becomes a more rational strategy.

For anyone who hasn't volunteered before or isn't a woman, the odds of getting a place are not in your favour. So given there are other races around the same time (SRMR, NC4K etc...), it's entirely reasonable to hedge ones bets. But if you're contemplating any of those, then £25 isn't going to be a major barrier.

I just hope it doesn't put too many women off. 40 of us rode in 2019, after 63 were offered a place. I don't know what effect Fiona will have on this but it would be great to more women riding.

J
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Karla

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Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #54 on: November 26, 2019, 10:49:51 am »
I'm sorry but I can't follow the logic here. Why does bivving every night preclude you from being competitive?

I was suggesting that if you rode to the start, and rode home again, then race between the two, sleeping in bus shelters, and under bushes, you don't need to have a hotel every night. There's a cheap youth hostel in brest, etc...

"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.

1) Riding there.  Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying.  Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start?  Remember, it's a linear race.
2) Bivvying during a race.   I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster.  Right?
3) Cooking for yourself.  If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you?  You're touring.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #55 on: November 26, 2019, 11:16:06 am »
my view is that even if using hotels is faster (if well planned) the difference of saving few hours  for someone mid-pack would be neither here nor there, e.g. finishing 67 vs 76 - who cares.. for most people the aim is to finish before the race is over, to arrive in one piece, to give their best shot.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #56 on: November 26, 2019, 11:16:29 am »
"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.

1) Riding there.  Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying.  Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start?  Remember, it's a linear race.

Emily Chappell rode to the start of every race she entered.

Quote
2) Bivvying during a race.   I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster.  Right?

What are you defining as racing? are only the top 10 racing? Are only those who aim to do it in sub 12 days racing?

I entered race around the Netherlands, knowing full well I'd probably come last, I gave it my all, and in the end, came 2nd. Was I racing? or touring?

Quote
3) Cooking for yourself.  If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you?  You're touring.

Tell that to the riders of the SRMR.

Who said anything about cooking anyway? Food is dirt cheap once you pass by about Austria, and if you are sensible, you can get stuff pretty cheap in the west too.

One rider on RatN who was going faste then me until they scratched, had a tent, and a stove, and cooked their own porridge each morning. Were they not racing?

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #57 on: November 26, 2019, 11:29:58 am »
my view is that even if using hotels is faster (if well planned) the difference of saving few hours  for someone mid-pack would be neither here nor there, e.g. finishing 67 vs 76 - who cares.. for most people the aim is to finish before the race is over, to arrive in one piece, to give their best shot.

And for some, they enter it just hoping to survive, and end up doing much better than they thought they would.

IMHO, everyone who makes it to the start line is racing. They may not be racing each other, they may be racing the weather, or the route, or their own inner demons. But every one of them is racing.

If you're doing it on a budget, or you're doing it with dietary requirements, then you're racing on a higher difficulty level. But you're still racing.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #58 on: November 26, 2019, 11:47:35 am »
I'm not saying you have to earn 6 figures to do TCR, but I don't think you can do it if you clock shifts at Deliveroo either. Money is an entry barrier.
TCR6 fastest female Ede Harrison, is/was a deliveroo rider, or it might have been Just Eat.
https://advntr.cc/ede-harrison-transconrace/

And I know of at least two this year, though I can't remember the names.  One as their only income, the other as a part time job to fund their cycling.

I don't think cost is a barrier if you live in the West and are employed, in any job, you'd just have to want it enough. If money really is that tight, a couple of hours deliveroo three or four nights a week or some other part time work would easily fund it. 

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #59 on: November 26, 2019, 12:02:57 pm »
The problem with the £25 isn't the affordibility per se, it's who it puts off. IIRC there've been studies of job applicants where the more hoops you make people jump through, the more likely you are to end up with nothing but overconfident upper/middle class white men, independent of actual ability to do the job.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #60 on: November 26, 2019, 12:05:27 pm »
TCR6 fastest female Ede Harrison, is/was a deliveroo rider, or it might have been Just Eat.
https://advntr.cc/ede-harrison-transconrace/


Exactly. Being a woman cycle courier has historically been very good for increasing ones chances of winning...

*applies for job as bike courier*

Quote
And I know of at least two this year, though I can't remember the names.  One as their only income, the other as a part time job to fund their cycling.

I don't think cost is a barrier if you live in the West and are employed, in any job, you'd just have to want it enough. If money really is that tight, a couple of hours deliveroo three or four nights a week or some other part time work would easily fund it.

To an extent I agree, but you have to be careful how you state it. It's very easy to fall into the trap of poor people are poor because they just don't want to not be poor hard enough.

If you are single, and make the TCR your sole goal, foresaking everything else, then income should not be a major hurdle. You can even combine some training with earning money (see deliveroo et al).

I think what urked me the most was that you only find out about the £25 when you start applying. If you've carefully budgetted that you need x by January for the first payment, and y by April for the second. Knowing about it a couple of weeks ago you could have done 3 hours over time to make sure you had it.

I think it should have been £25 to submit, not to start the process. In 2018 I started to apply, but then chickened out and did RatN instead. But by being able to look at the form, and know the sort of things that are asked, it allayed a lot of my concerns ready for when I applied for real in 2019. Looking at the form doesn't cost race control anything, it isn't until you hit submit that you commit to anything or tie up any meaningful resource.

I can see why they did it, I just think advanced notice, and moving they payment to the submit button, rather than the begin button, would have been better. But then if we want to play their game, we play by their rules, they own the ball afterall.

The problem with the £25 isn't the affordibility per se, it's who it puts off. IIRC there've been studies of job applicants where the more hoops you make people jump through, the more likely you are to end up with nothing but overconfident upper/middle class white men, independent of actual ability to do the job.

Yes, there is that. As someone who speaks at conferences about how to increase diversity in the tech industry, this is the sort of thing that comes up a lot.

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
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bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #61 on: November 26, 2019, 12:30:36 pm »
The problem with the £25 isn't the affordibility per se, it's who it puts off. IIRC there've been studies of job applicants where the more hoops you make people jump through, the more likely you are to end up with nothing but overconfident upper/middle class white men, independent of actual ability to do the job.

one hundred thousand times this.

It would have been great if some kind of money like this would be specifically waived if the applicant was of a historically under represented capacity and tbe dough ringfenced for promoting a more inclusive race. Call it the Mike Hall inclusive transcon racer fund or something.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2019, 12:41:57 pm »
I'm an under confident middle class white man.

Therefore I'm not applying.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #63 on: November 26, 2019, 12:43:22 pm »
IMHO, everyone who makes it to the start line is racing. They may not be racing each other, they may be racing the weather, or the route, or their own inner demons. But every one of them is racing.

well, seeing people on the road and at controls i'd say 50/50 racing/touring. the thing is it is difficult for others to see if people are pushing or taking it easy (or somewhere in between), so it's down to every person's perceived effort, which is fine.
the idea of achievement by just getting to the start line - well, someone* could just turn up to the start without any preparation whatsoever (with increased probability of scratching), say, this weekend. it is only an achievement if someone has put a lot of effort and work into preparation - which i hope most people do in order to ride the best they can, along the lines of this guy.

* someone who knows what to take with them, how to fix the bike, how to navigate, is in good enough shape etc.

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #64 on: November 26, 2019, 01:33:38 pm »

"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.

1) Riding there.  Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying.  Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start?  Remember, it's a linear race.
2) Bivvying during a race.   I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster.  Right?
3) Cooking for yourself.  If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you?  You're touring.

Riding there depends where from, eg plenty of people rode to Geraardsbergen from London, over a couple of days. 

While Kristoff and James hotelled, I believe that Josh Ibbett mostly bivvied when he won and Fiona did approx 50:50.  Mike bivvied a lot on his events and, in the remoter races, bivvying is a necessity.  I think the essence of Kristoff and James' approach is being organised and having a timetable more than it is about hotels.  I think Mike was less timetabled (although I've never checked the IndyPac tracker to see if that is actually true), but that worked for him.

Cooking when alternatives are availalbe is not racing.

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #65 on: November 26, 2019, 01:40:42 pm »
my view is that even if using hotels is faster (if well planned) the difference of saving few hours  for someone mid-pack would be neither here nor there, e.g. finishing 67 vs 76 - who cares.. for most people the aim is to finish before the race is over, to arrive in one piece, to give their best shot.

I'm afraid I care!  I raced hard when I did it, even though it was for 31st place!  I recall Mike writing something about the race for [32nd] place being as important to those involved as the race for first. 

^ But I agree with your other post - I see a good proportion of riders who are taking it a little bit easy, chilling out in cafes and riding fast but short days.  These guys typically overtake me at least once a day!

^My approach for IndyPac, after winter when I had hardly ridden let alone trained, was just to turn up and see how it went.  I still raced just as hard, just I was a couple of km/h or so slower than I could have been if I was in shape.  I wasn't taking anyone's place.  But for TCR, in summer, oversubscribed, I couldn't imagine not trying to get in the best shape I could.

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #66 on: November 26, 2019, 01:51:35 pm »
I'm not saying you have to earn 6 figures to do TCR, but I don't think you can do it if you clock shifts at Deliveroo either. Money is an entry barrier.
TCR6 fastest female Ede Harrison, is/was a deliveroo rider, or it might have been Just Eat.
https://advntr.cc/ede-harrison-transconrace/

And I know of at least two this year, though I can't remember the names.  One as their only income, the other as a part time job to fund their cycling.

I don't think cost is a barrier if you live in the West and are employed, in any job, you'd just have to want it enough. If money really is that tight, a couple of hours deliveroo three or four nights a week or some other part time work would easily fund it.

Essentially, if you are wealthy enough to take a holiday abroad - which not everyone is - TCR is not an expensive holiday.

Lots of ultra-riders work as bike couriers which, nowadays, mainly means Deliveroo and similar.  Steve Abraham is one example, but others I know off the top of my head include Stephane Ouaja and Kai Edel, who have both finished at the sharp end of TCR / TABR / IndyPac and Thomas Jacquelinet, who won TPR. Women include Franziske Kuhne, Lulu Drinkwater and of course, Emily Chappell - although she has now moved on.

Karla

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    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #67 on: November 26, 2019, 02:04:14 pm »
QG: No the person with a tent wasn't racing.  I don't think the event was oversubscribed?  If it was, s/he shouldn't have been there.


"If you are cash poor but time rich you can do the race cheaply", that suggests quite a few things, not just riding there, and none of them will make you faster.

1) Riding there.  Not the best preparation for a race, especially if you're bivvying.  Still quite expensive unless you take cooking kit, in which case what do you intend to do with your extra kit before the start?  Remember, it's a linear race.
2) Bivvying during a race.   I'll defer to people like Zigzag, but the hotel approach has won it enough that it seems pretty certain to be faster.  Right?
3) Cooking for yourself.  If you're taking extra kit to cook rather than buying prepared food, you're not really racing at all are you?  You're touring.

Congratulations on getting 31st place, rather than 35th or whatever you'd have got had you not raced so hard!

Riding there depends where from, eg plenty of people rode to Geraardsbergen from London, over a couple of days. 

While Kristoff and James hotelled, I believe that Josh Ibbett mostly bivvied when he won and Fiona did approx 50:50.  Mike bivvied a lot on his events and, in the remoter races, bivvying is a necessity.  I think the essence of Kristoff and James' approach is being organised and having a timetable more than it is about hotels.  I think Mike was less timetabled (although I've never checked the IndyPac tracker to see if that is actually true), but that worked for him.

Cooking when alternatives are availalbe is not racing.

Riding there: London to Gerardsburgen, sure, but it's a lot further for most people.  For anyone who is far enough away for riding to save much cost, it will also (especially if bivvying) impact race prep.

Cooking: yes.  QG's comment about the SRMR is just silly, it's a completely different situation - and yes I've ridden in all the countries used by both races.

Accommodation is kinda the same: sure you'll need to bivi in remoter areas but if you're planning to bivi the whole time to save money, you're optimising for cost not for speed.  The race is now oversubscribed enough that I think anyone entering - particularly anyone entering with the privilege of being in one of the protected categories - who isn't absolutely optimising for speed, needs to take a very stern look at themselves.


Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #68 on: November 26, 2019, 02:13:30 pm »
my view is that even if using hotels is faster (if well planned) the difference of saving few hours  for someone mid-pack would be neither here nor there, e.g. finishing 67 vs 76 - who cares.. for most people the aim is to finish before the race is over, to arrive in one piece, to give their best shot.

I'm afraid I care!  I raced hard when I did it, even though it was for 31st place!  I recall Mike writing something about the race for [32nd] place being as important to those involved as the race for first. 

^ But I agree with your other post - I see a good proportion of riders who are taking it a little bit easy, chilling out in cafes and riding fast but short days.  These guys typically overtake me at least once a day!

^My approach for IndyPac, after winter when I had hardly ridden let alone trained, was just to turn up and see how it went.  I still raced just as hard, just I was a couple of km/h or so slower than I could have been if I was in shape.  I wasn't taking anyone's place.  But for TCR, in summer, oversubscribed, I couldn't imagine not trying to get in the best shape I could.

Got to chirp in here too ZigZag.  Disagree. Just as in, say a marathon, you end up being super competitive with the racers around you. Think of the four hour finishers pulling hamstrings as they try to outspent each other over the line. The ones already up the road and over the hill are in a different race.
  TCR Example. Last year there was a small group of us bringing up the rear who ended up in the CP hotel at Bjelasnica a day after the cutoff.  Heading up the climb in the morning I was delighted to see lights behind me, but then pissed to see one rider already on his way down. He instantly became my rabbit to chase to Meteora.
 Of course that all went tits up an hour later when I took an unplanned detour into the karstik badlands below the mountain for a day. I was pissed to be lost, but because I'd let him go too.

often lost.

Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #69 on: November 26, 2019, 02:19:21 pm »
Congratulations on getting 31st place, rather than 35th or whatever you'd have got had you not raced so hard!

Thanks.  If I'd taken it as easy as some I reckon I could have easily come in 50th or 60th.  But being paced up that hill in Montenegro helped!

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #70 on: November 26, 2019, 02:24:09 pm »
Shhhhh!

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2019, 02:32:23 pm »
yes, i did say "to give their best shot" which includes competition among riders mid pack, urgency, adrenaline, and associated emotions (if there is still energy left to feel them!..). but whether that translates into 67 or 76 place on the gc is largely irrelevant, in my eyes at least.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #72 on: November 26, 2019, 04:57:07 pm »
QG: No the person with a tent wasn't racing.  I don't think the event was oversubscribed?  If it was, s/he shouldn't have been there.

But he was faster than me, had he finished he would have done so at least a day ahead of me. I was racing Shiela and Aujke. Why wasn't he?

Quote

Accommodation is kinda the same: sure you'll need to bivi in remoter areas but if you're planning to bivi the whole time to save money, you're optimising for cost not for speed.  The race is now oversubscribed enough that I think anyone entering - particularly anyone entering with the privilege of being in one of the protected categories - who isn't absolutely optimising for speed, needs to take a very stern look at themselves.

So because I have no chance of challenging for the top 10, even tho I will be going as fast as I can possibly go, you suggest I shouldn't even be entering?

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2019, 05:02:49 pm »
Presumably the rider who came twelfth riding fixed gear in 2017 (iirc) isn't the real deal either  ;D ::-)

Make sure you wear skinsuits and TT helmets to make the criteria, everyone! And don't forget to shave your legs!

Though saying that, I have been eyeing up one of these.... https://ridefar.info/2016/12/the-most-comfortable-cycling-clothing-one-piece-outfits/#Louis_Garneau_Course_Skin_Suit
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: TCR no8.
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2019, 05:18:50 pm »

Well that's an interesting one.

This just went past on twitter:

https://twitter.com/DeGendtThomas/status/1199370949885337606

I have mixed feelings on this one if it happens. On the one hand, holy fuck I get to race against a pro tour rider (sure I'm gonna lose, but still). On the other hand, no fair! you can go ride the tour/giro/vuelta, which I can't.

Should you be allowed to race an amateur event with such limited capacity, if you have a pro tour license?

Something I love about ultraracing is that it is so accessible. All the training in the world will never let me ride the Giro, but I lined up in Amerongen, next to a 24hr TT world champion, a 24hr tt world + national champion, and a Transam winner. In Burgas the night before the race one of my cycling heros sat with me, gave me some advice, and we had a nice chat about the race ahead. We lined up the next morning before they disappeared up the road. They gave me their number if I want to ask them for advice. But I'm too scared to text them.

I'll never win. But I'll give it my best shot.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/