Author Topic: The Anti 1x thread  (Read 3438 times)

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2019, 01:17:10 pm »
It is all a bit mad, IMO.

26,36,46 up front, and your choice of 8 on the back was pretty optimum for general riding (touring, commuting and audax).

Marketing just messed it up from then on.

I'm not so sure I'd agree.

The biggest 8 speed cassette I can find is an 11-34. That means a ratio of 1.31 for your lowest gear, and 4.18 at the top. Or 1.6 MOD -> 8.9MOD. At 90RPM the top speed would be 47.8kph. At 60rpm on a hill in bottom gear you'd get 5.8kph.

Conversely, my 28/38 front and 11-40 rear cassette gives you:

1.5MOD -> 7.4MOD. Which is a 60rpm climber of 5.3kph and a 90rpm top speed of 39.5kph.

...

trimmed the details.

I agree that your 28/38 front and 11-40 rear setup is superior for most touring.

I used to commute and regularly exceeded 40kph when drafting, on gentle downhills or with a following wind - but then, that is a niche type of cycling (and I couldn't do it now).

What derailleurs and shifters are you using? My current bike is a double with tiagra and I would prefer lower gears at the bottom end for the very rare occasions when I go camping. Don't have the legs for getting a load up a hill with sub 1:1 ratios any more, would prefer something like your setup.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2019, 01:26:41 pm »
As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2019, 01:45:39 pm »

trimmed the details.

I agree that your 28/38 front and 11-40 rear setup is superior for most touring.

I used to commute and regularly exceeded 40kph when drafting, on gentle downhills or with a following wind - but then, that is a niche type of cycling (and I couldn't do it now).

What derailleurs and shifters are you using? My current bike is a double with tiagra and I would prefer lower gears at the bottom end for the very rare occasions when I go camping. Don't have the legs for getting a load up a hill with sub 1:1 ratios any more, would prefer something like your setup.

I have a M8050 Di2 Rear mech, and the M8070 Front mech. I went Di2 because I wanted to be able to shift from the aero bars. I have to say di2 has been a fantastic upgrade. I love it. I'm gonna save up and get a set of climbing shifters too.

As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

Hard to gauge as I don't generally clean a chain, just keep adding more lube. I got ~3000km from my first 11 speed chain, and would get about ~4500km from a 10 speed chain. The chains in question being KMC X11sl and X10sl. Is the chain life a bit low because I don't clean them properly, or is it low because of the inherent design restrictions of 11 speed? Hard to say. Chains are replaced at 0.5% stretch on the 11 speed, and 0.75% stretch on the 10 speed.

Sturmey archer 3 speed is all you need.

Please fit this to your bike, and come join me for the Ardennes trip Dutch Audax in July*. Would love to see someone do that on a Sturmey archer 3 speed.

J

* https://www.randonneurs.nl/brevet/brm-200-heerlen/

Have the 3 speed on a brompton, on a raleigh cameo and looking a building 3 speed with back pedal brake.

Looking at that elevation, are there any riders doing the audax fixed?

I'm so unfit I doubt I could do that audax on a motorbike.

Then by your own words, a 3 speed sturmey archer isn't all you need, else you would be able to do that ride on it.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2019, 02:04:35 pm »
*I've seen people claim that they can get an 11-40 to work with the RX815 or RX817 rear mech, and I've heard similar about it working with the ultegra rear mech. But it's without the spec, and may not work for everyone...

My RX805* didn't seem happy with an 11-42 at least in my brief testing. The RX817 is only specced for 1x use. No idea if it refuses to work when an FD is added to the system or not.

(* "Ultegra RX", which is extremely similar to the RX815)

Please fit this to your bike, and come join me for the Ardennes trip Dutch Audax in July*. Would love to see someone do that on a Sturmey archer 3 speed.

I've been up some of those hills on a Sturmey Archer 3 speed. A 2x2x3 speed, but still a 3 speed.

Alas I'll be dicking about in Scotland that weekend.

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2019, 03:18:45 pm »
Apropos of nothing, I used to commute from a hill above Holmfirth, through Holmfirth, over Saddleworth moor to Greenfield on a 3-speed SA. One gear for going uphill. One for the flat/cruising. One for downhill or a following wind.

Didn't have a camping load, just commuting gear.   
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2019, 03:28:40 pm »
I quite like the idea of 1x. At this stage of the game I have a feeling that having 38 up front with 11-28/30/32 would poss work quite well compared to my 46/36 with 12/27 or 13/26 setups the top ends of which I v.rarely use.

Carlosfandango

  • Yours fragrantly.
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2019, 07:42:21 pm »
As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

Apparently modern chains do last longer. I've recently read a write up of tests where both Shimano and SRAM 12 speed chains last twice as long as 9 speed and cheap 10 and 11 speed  KMC chains.  :o


ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2019, 07:44:27 pm »
At 5.3 kmh, most people would be quicker to get off and walk
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2019, 07:59:36 pm »
At 5.3 kmh, most people would be quicker to get off and walk

Assuming the cycle's practically pushable, and they aren't going to destroy their cleats or whatever by doing so.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2019, 08:03:27 pm »
I think riders can overestimate how fast they can push bikes up v-steep hills; that's where these comparisons tend to go wrong.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2019, 08:25:25 pm »
in an early edition of 'bicycling science' there is some data which suggests that once you hit a certain gradient, it might be better to get off and walk. However Chris Juden pointed out to me that in that study, they hadn't had access to the very lowest gear ratios, so this, rather than the gradient per se was the thing that limits the speed at which you can still ride comfortably. He contended that  -provided you have suitably low gear ratios-  you are still better off riding your bike than pushing it, even when you are riding up a very steep gradient at speeds that are well  below normal walking pace. 

cheers

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2019, 08:27:34 pm »
Agree-ish with Matt. I don't think pushing would actually be faster but I don't think there'd be much in it either way. I do think your legs might benefit from walking if it's a steep hill on a long ride, it's good to give them a change of action.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2019, 08:50:32 pm »
Last time I checked (Crowcombe Hill, Quantocks), I was pushing a loaded touring bike at 3 kph where I'd been pedaling at 4.5 to 5 kph (until I tried to shake a drop of sweat off my eyelash before it got in my eye, and lost my balance)

The biggest 8 speed cassette I can find is an 11-34.
11-40 8 speed here

Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2019, 08:52:33 pm »


Then by your own words, a 3 speed sturmey archer isn't all you need, else you would be able to do that ride on it.

J

Suspect alot is being lost in my humour, I could not do that even on a motorbike.   

Do you think that there will there will be some people doing it with a fixed gear?

As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

Hard to gauge as I don't generally clean a chain, just keep adding more lube. I got ~3000km from my first 11 speed chain, and would get about ~4500km from a 10 speed chain. The chains in question being KMC X11sl and X10sl. Is the chain life a bit low because I don't clean them properly, or is it low because of the inherent design restrictions of 11 speed? Hard to say. Chains are replaced at 0.5% stretch on the 11 speed, and 0.75% stretch on the 10 speed.

Do you rotate three chains to keep the the cassette life or one chain then another.

Being nosey as I'm thinking of going 1x9 or 1x10 on the mountain bike.

As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

Apparently modern chains do last longer. I've recently read a write up of tests where both Shimano and SRAM 12 speed chains last twice as long as 9 speed and cheap 10 and 11 speed  KMC chains.  :o



Wonder how that happens, different materials for the chain?

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2019, 09:10:32 pm »
...
With the 3x8 you have the mental load of making sure that you use the right combo of chain ring and sprocket at any given time.
...
The 11-34 8 speed cassette has 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-34, but your 26 is best with the 23,26,34, the 36 with the 23,20,17,15, and the 46 with the 11,13,15. The range is ok, but you actually only have 10 usable gears. Conversely with my 2x11, the big ring works with all 11 gears, whilst the small ring is ok with the bottom 4 gears, Giving me 15 options. My di2 also offloads all of this processing...

I've never found the mental load all that great - I tend to treat the chainrings as broad categories.

When I used to have 8 speed (a couple of weeks ago) I probably used more than 4 gears in the middle and large chainrings too. Which seems like a fairer comparison than "is best with" vs "works with". But that's splitting hairs.

...
And this is where I'm going to get all radical and start annoying people with my standard rant about the shitness of gearing on off the shelf bikes.
...

I, for one, agree. Emulating pro racers doesn't really work for me.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2019, 09:40:59 pm »
I think riders can overestimate how fast they can push bikes up v-steep hills; that's where these comparisons tend to go wrong.

I think riders overestimate their ability to stay upright on a bicycle uphill at stupidly low speeds.

BTDTGTTS, I pushed the bike
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2019, 11:17:02 pm »
...
With the 3x8 you have the mental load of making sure that you use the right combo of chain ring and sprocket at any given time.
...
The 11-34 8 speed cassette has 11-13-15-17-20-23-26-34, but your 26 is best with the 23,26,34, the 36 with the 23,20,17,15, and the 46 with the 11,13,15. The range is ok, but you actually only have 10 usable gears. Conversely with my 2x11, the big ring works with all 11 gears, whilst the small ring is ok with the bottom 4 gears, Giving me 15 options. My di2 also offloads all of this processing...

I've never found the mental load all that great - I tend to treat the chainrings as broad categories.

When I used to have 8 speed (a couple of weeks ago) I probably used more than 4 gears in the middle and large chainrings too. Which seems like a fairer comparison than "is best with" vs "works with". But that's splitting hairs.

...
And this is where I'm going to get all radical and start annoying people with my standard rant about the shitness of gearing on off the shelf bikes.
...

I, for one, agree. Emulating pro racers doesn't really work for me.

My 8sp triple set up works thus 26t ring 30,26,23,20,17,15, 34t ring 30,26,23,20,17,15,13,11, 46t ring 17,15,13 and, downhill with a tail wind, 11. I have on one occasion had to take the fd out of play and the 34 ring was quite adequate to finish the ride although sub-optimal. I don't need a processor to tell me which gear I want to be in, my legs tell me that!

The way to improve the gearing options on ready built bikes in the shops is not to buy them. It's your money, make it work for you not some technofreek! The way to get what you want is to stop buying what you don't want! And tell the shops, the suppliers, the manufacturers what you think of their choices!

I was tempted by your challenge. I would happily do that circuit on my AW- but it won't be at audax speed and it most certainly wouldn't be in july, unless Holland and Belgium are an awful lot cooler than central France (july I finish riding at 10a.m.). I am not sure that I would do any 3000m 200 in the delays on any bike, regardless of transmission.

I would almost certainly risk falling over at silly slow speeds uphill. I think my cadence is below 60rpm uphill.

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2019, 02:58:56 pm »

As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

Hard to gauge as I don't generally clean a chain, just keep adding more lube. I got ~3000km from my first 11 speed chain, and would get about ~4500km from a 10 speed chain. The chains in question being KMC X11sl and X10sl. Is the chain life a bit low because I don't clean them properly, or is it low because of the inherent design restrictions of 11 speed? Hard to say. Chains are replaced at 0.5% stretch on the 11 speed, and 0.75% stretch on the 10 speed.


This is more or less exactly what I've fond running 10 speed KMC chains.
I do clean mine and run either Decathlon wet lube (for long rides) or wax based dry lubes on shorter rides.
Cleaning is generally a matter of blasting the chain with WD40, wiping it repeatedly with a rag until it's mostly clean - i.e the rag is coming off much less "oily"
I then store the bike like that and lube the chain at the next outing.

Seems to work OK, with nice quiet running and reliable shifting.


zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2019, 03:03:37 pm »
As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

Apparently modern chains do last longer. I've recently read a write up of tests where both Shimano and SRAM 12 speed chains last twice as long as 9 speed and cheap 10 and 11 speed  KMC chains.  :o



this article perhaps?

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2019, 03:14:13 pm »
As others have mentioned, what is the chain wear like with such a large spread of the chain.  Or are modern chains better at that sort of thing than the old 5 speed chains.

Apparently modern chains do last longer. I've recently read a write up of tests where both Shimano and SRAM 12 speed chains last twice as long as 9 speed and cheap 10 and 11 speed  KMC chains.  :o



this article perhaps?

big shock there; despite being fractionally narrower,  expensive chains (using the latest hardening technology)  last longer than cheap chains!  Who'd have thunk it?..... ::-)

Many riders are most interested in the most cost-effective strategy (in time and/or money terms). That varies with the use/maintenance regime of course. No point in spending a lot on a chain if it is just going to go rusty....?

cheers


Gattopardo

  • Lord of the sith
  • Overseaing the building of the death star
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2019, 03:17:49 pm »
So do three 8 speed chains cost more than 1 12 speed chain?

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2019, 03:31:14 pm »
Many riders are most interested in the most cost-effective strategy (in time and/or money terms). That varies with the use/maintenance regime of course. No point in spending a lot on a chain if it is just going to go rusty....?

Perhaps counter-intuitively, I use an expensive chain (SRAM PC991) on my about-town bike because it *doesn't* go rusty when neglected.  It does a fraction of the mileage of my other bikes, so I'm not replacing it very often, and I consider the more expensive chain worthwhile for not having to worry about it.

The nicer bikes tend to get more chain maintenance (either in the interests of reliability/performance, or because they end up absolutely covered in mud), so can have less posh chains.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2019, 03:44:21 pm »
big shock there; despite being fractionally narrower

The longitudinal wear surfaces are still ~3/16 inch wide on all multi-speed chains, so number of speeds shouldn't be a direct cause of more or less wear.

Clicking through to the article it's nice to see my preferred SRAM PC-1130 wins the value/km chart. It's £10-15 for 2000 km *. Nickel plated too, so doesn't rust.

(* I'm sure I get far more than that out of them, but then I don't bother much with chain stretch checkers/percentages, because I am a monster)

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2019, 03:48:06 pm »
My dad's got a big box of SRAM 11 speed chains he got off Planet X (where else) for stupid discounts a while ago, we just bung them on all the bikes excluding the SSs, works a treat.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Re: The Anti 1x thread
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2019, 04:48:07 pm »
big shock there; despite being fractionally narrower

The longitudinal wear surfaces are still ~3/16 inch wide on all multi-speed chains, so number of speeds shouldn't be a direct cause of more or less wear.


I'm not sure that is what you meant to say, and if it is, then I don't agree. Derailleur chains have been nominally 3/32"  for some years and 9s 10, 11, 12s chains are narrower; nominally 11/128" . The outer width of chains can be reduced because the steel that is used for the side plates is stronger and can therefore be made thinner. Rivets don't pull out of sideplates because of changes in rivet design.

However  the pin bushing wear surfaces are much narrower than you might expect because

a) the inner side plates are pierced so there is an entry radius to the pin bushing, i.e. it is shorter than you might expect and
b) the half-bushings don't even meet in the middle anyway.

You only need to look at a worn chain link to see what I mean; the pins usually bear scars which show clearly that the half-bushings are each about 1mm wide.

Modern chains derive a small benefit in that the half-bushings share the load slightly better when the chain articulates (bad chainline) simply because the half-bushings are closer together. However the life extension is possible in most cases because of hard-coating/lubrication  technologies such as PTFE coating and/or DLC and so forth.

A further complication is that all things being equal, narrower sprockets (which have gradually gone from about 2.0mm thickness to less than 1.6mm) wear faster, and worn sprockets usually cause the chain to see more articulation under load, so worn sprockets may accelerate chain wear, and skinnier sprockets cause that whole process to speed up.   [FWIW there is definitely an effect there; for example  it is not at all unusual to see that the (narrower) tooth next to a shift ramp is noticeably more worn than any of the other teeth on any given sprocket.]

Cassettes and sprockets that are used with more than one chain are not free from wear; it is just that if the chain is changed soon enough the teeth still keep approximately the right shape. If you do this in the right way then about 1mm can be lost from each tooth and it will still run OK with a new(ish) chain.

cheers