Author Topic: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour  (Read 2920 times)

New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« on: December 04, 2019, 09:45:14 pm »
Hi folks,

I just bought this Bob Jackson world tour from a guy on ebay for £200 and I'm confused by a couple of things.



The head tube looks a lot shorter than other BJ world tours that I've seen (I don't know what age this is - it's made from 531). Have they changed the geometry at any point? And that leads to my other bit of confusion about geometry in general. A touring bike is supposed to be more relaxed, but the head tube on this is short, and the top tube is longer than the seat tube. Shouldn't all of that be the opposite? I'm 5'10" with an 87 cm inseam (short body, long legs), so wanted something very relaxed for winter and light touring. This is a 54. Would I actually be more upright on a larger frame? Would the reach be about the same but the seat tube longer?

Cheers all...




Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 09:47:38 pm »
Dammit. How do I insert a pic?

https://ibb.co/7S52Cw0

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 10:23:47 pm »

S2L

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2019, 08:22:48 am »
In a traditional frame with a horizontal top tube, the height of the head tube is simply dictated by the size of the frame (length of the seat tube)... angles make very little difference.

It does look like a fairly standard 54 frame to me... I am not sure how else it is supposed to look like.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2019, 08:48:18 am »
Whatever the angles that is an absolute steal at £200.
Hear all, see all, say nowt

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2019, 02:47:47 pm »
Don't think it is a World Tour as it does not have front fork bosses for rack nor does it have bosses for three bottle carriers. However it is a lovely bike and well worth what you have paid for it. The current World Tour is 631 tubing.
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  • what a nice chap
Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2019, 10:03:48 pm »
one of the options  when ordering a BJ is an extended head tube.I think its an early one, maybe 1970's 80's,

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2019, 10:30:40 pm »
I dunno if it is just the photo or what but it looks as if it has a high BB, a steep head angle as well as a long-ish TT.  To me it looks more like a 'cross frame that has been refurbished with mudguard eyes, rear rack bosses etc than anything else.

Remember that BJ's models have changed as time has gone on and many of their frames used to be custom made too; the idea that they might all be the same as one another and/or the same as current models is just plain daft.

  It might well be a much older frame than you think; I can't be sure from a single photo but the fork looks like the 'old' 531 pattern that was used in the 1970s, with a more extreme oval section and much slimmer tips to the blades. [If so it will ride beautifully, BTW.]

If the frame is older then the rear end spacing may be either

- still set narrower than is standard today or
- reset to a wider standard eg 130mm.

If the latter then it is not unusual to be able to see that the seat stays are no longer perfectly straight.

[edit; I've taken a closer look at the photo and there are good signs that it is a much older frameset that has been modified in more recent years; AFAICT there is a stop under the DT for band-on levers, the front mech cable run has a tunnel guide on it (that went out of fashion in the 1970s) and (again it is not possible to be sure from a single photo) it looks as if the canti-bosses (on the fork but not the stays) are set to the 'old' spacing (~65mm) rather than the more recent MTB-inspired ~80mm spacing.]

cheers

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2019, 10:42:41 pm »
Whatever it's a really nice bike. Slightly small for you, perhaps (sorry). I ride that size and I'm a good 1.5" smaller than you. Because top-tube length is roughly proportional to seat-tube length, it may be hard to get the bike long enough for you and still relaxed.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2019, 11:01:15 am »
That's all really interesting. Thanks for the insight. I sent an email to BJ with the frame number to see if they can give me any info out of interest. Donald wrote straight back and said it would be 85/86 but I'd have to pay £25 for full detailed info. I might do that.

In terms of the size, because my body is short, the reach when i'm on the hoods feels okay. Just need to get the bars up a bit. Might cycle over to Spa and see what they say about it.

But, yeah, I thought it was a steal at £200. Aside from the saddle that i've put on, it's exactly as I bought it. It's a mixture of LX and 105 with Mavic rims that are true.

I just need to get out on it to see how it's all running.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2020, 09:05:26 am »


The silver machine on the left is the first tourer of that kind that BJ made (in 2000).   I ordered it from them as an expedition tourer and they made a beautiful frame that is in fact one of their 600c frames adapted to take 24 inch wheels (it will take 2.75" tyres).  Unfortunately they then brazed the brake bosses where the 600c wheels needed them.  They also attempted to use STI levers on MTB gearing (back then it didn't work and I even got an email from Sheldon Brown saying why).  I took it back a few times and they were very reluctant to admit their mistakes and consequently failed to fix them.  That's why the bike has 'Ellis Briggs' on it!  They put the stuff right and resprayed the bike silver. 

Since then it has proved a lovely, comfortable bike to tour on with great handling when loaded, especially at speed on descents.
Sic transit and all that..

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2020, 09:35:40 am »
When I ordered my Bob Jackson World Tour in 2007 it was completely specced to my desires. During the ordering process I was even asked to send a photo of my previous tourer so the way I load my tourer could be integrated in the design process. Since I tend to front load a lot the front end was beefed up. Anything could be specced as long as it's reasonable so it's hard to find 2 BJ World Tours from the same year to be of the same size and have all the same specs. The great benefits of custom made frames.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2020, 09:37:01 am »
Dammit. How do I insert a pic?

https://ibb.co/7S52Cw0


If that's the bike set up for riding and if it's a "normal" quill stem then the frame's at least 30mm too small.

The stem would be too far out of the frame to be safe. Maybe the seatpin is as well.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2020, 09:29:47 pm »
When I ordered my Bob Jackson World Tour in 2007 it was completely specced to my desires. During the ordering process I was even asked to send a photo of my previous tourer so the way I load my tourer could be integrated in the design process. Since I tend to front load a lot the front end was beefed up. Anything could be specced as long as it's reasonable so it's hard to find 2 BJ World Tours from the same year to be of the same size and have all the same specs. The great benefits of custom made frames.

It's good to hear that my prototype paid dividends for future buyers!  It was their design, I didn't want my existing tourer copied as I wanted something better, which ultimately I achieved.  I do have front loading bosses on mine, French style but I can get everything I carry into two rear panniers and not into two front panniers.  The only disadvantage is the windage on descents.  The tubing is oversized 531 which makes it good and firm and is very stable at speed, loaded or not.  Normal 531 was too flexible for me. 

The bike behind is a much more recent design but I can't remember who made the frame. 
Sic transit and all that..

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2020, 10:49:12 pm »
When I ordered my Bob Jackson World Tour in 2007 it was completely specced to my desires. During the ordering process I was even asked to send a photo of my previous tourer so the way I load my tourer could be integrated in the design process. Since I tend to front load a lot the front end was beefed up. Anything could be specced as long as it's reasonable so it's hard to find 2 BJ World Tours from the same year to be of the same size and have all the same specs. The great benefits of custom made frames.

It's good to hear that my prototype paid dividends for future buyers!  It was their design, I didn't want my existing tourer copied as I wanted something better, which ultimately I achieved.  I do have front loading bosses on mine, French style but I can get everything I carry into two rear panniers and not into two front panniers.  The only disadvantage is the windage on descents.  The tubing is oversized 531 which makes it good and firm and is very stable at speed, loaded or not.  Normal 531 was too flexible for me. 

The bike behind is a much more recent design but I can't remember who made the frame.

I can confirm that mine is stable while descending, up to the level that by feel I think that I'm 10km/h slower than what I'm actually riding ;).
When cycle-touring to esperanto festivals I tend to haul a full concertshoot photokit in one of my front panniers so my World Tour already withstood some abuse ;).

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2020, 01:30:24 pm »
You can get longer-quill stems from Zenith or Nitto if the bike is a bit undersized (or, like my Jim Bundy track bike, has a forward-sloping top tube!).

It looks like a very nice bike.  If it was custom built then the geometry could be pretty weird - I've seen stories of BJ making things that were barely rideable.  However, the off-the-peg frames should be ok.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2020, 04:43:21 pm »
I've only ever seen one frame with a forward sloping top tube and that was a more mature rider at Ely's annual Hardriders TT, a 25 done in early Feb
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2020, 08:15:34 am »
Definitely too small, I'm identical I  measurements to you and it wasn't until bike fit+custom frame that I started to be able to interpret geometry charts to know what would fit (stack and reach helped a great deal). 

I'd guess at least 3/4 of road style bikes in the market wouldn't fit us without a huge stack of headset spacers, and that shouldn't be done with anything other than a steel fork steerer.  The 1/4 that would work are in the 'relaxed/sportive' type geometry that's a fairly recent thing so it rules out the vast majority of otp steel frames of old on the second hand market,  you'd have to get very lucky with a used custom frame made for someone equally freaky.

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Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2020, 11:16:04 pm »
Definitely too small, I'm identical I  measurements to you and it wasn't until bike fit+custom frame that I started to be able to interpret geometry charts to know what would fit (stack and reach helped a great deal). 

I'd guess at least 3/4 of road style bikes in the market wouldn't fit us without a huge stack of headset spacers, and that shouldn't be done with anything other than a steel fork steerer.  The 1/4 that would work are in the 'relaxed/sportive' type geometry that's a fairly recent thing so it rules out the vast majority of otp steel frames of old on the second hand market,  you'd have to get very lucky with a used custom frame made for someone equally freaky.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Sorry! I've been AWOL for months. It's great to hear that someone else has the same freaky measurements. What bike(s) do you ride!?

I currently ride a 2013 Focus Izalco Pro (that I've been but I feel like I've been on the rack after every ride and always have on all bikes other than my old mountain bike.

I'd like to get a more relaxed, steel bike. I need to test some, but I'm not sure whether to go audax, or if that would still be too racey for my measurements, or to go tourer. But then will it be TOO slow with the long wheel base. I might possibly get a racier (endurance) carbon bike in the future if money allows.


Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2020, 08:47:36 am »
I am 182cm with c.90cm legs.  My Bob Jackson was supposed to be custom but my Roberts that really was custom has a shorter top tube.  I replaced the stem on the BJ, I never had to change a thing on the Roberts.

 "you'd have to get very lucky with a used custom frame made for someone equally freaky."

My 1987 British Eagle would never have been custom yet it fits me perfectly, having a 62cm frame with a relatively short top tube.  It was made by a small workshop (Eagle Cycle Works, Mochdre, Newtown, Powys SY16 4LD) employing Welsh ex-coal miners and Barry Hoban was their design consultant.

In the mid-80s a quite a number of UK frame makers operated and could offer a variety of sizings.  I bought my first good bike(531 frame) in 1985.  I went to the shop in The Strand, they measured me up and told me to come back in a couple of hours!  When I returned, there was my bike, ready to go and I rode it to Chelmsford station where my car was parked.  I guess they had a stack of ready-made frames, all sizes, and just needed to stick the components on.   When it got nicked I bought the British Eagle Touristique off ebay for £30 (and spent loads more doing it up).
Sic transit and all that..

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2020, 09:37:18 am »
Definitely too small, I'm identical I  measurements to you and it wasn't until bike fit+custom frame that I started to be able to interpret geometry charts to know what would fit (stack and reach helped a great deal). 

I'd guess at least 3/4 of road style bikes in the market wouldn't fit us without a huge stack of headset spacers, and that shouldn't be done with anything other than a steel fork steerer.  The 1/4 that would work are in the 'relaxed/sportive' type geometry that's a fairly recent thing so it rules out the vast majority of otp steel frames of old on the second hand market,  you'd have to get very lucky with a used custom frame made for someone equally freaky.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Sorry! I've been AWOL for months. It's great to hear that someone else has the same freaky measurements. What bike(s) do you ride!?

I currently ride a 2013 Focus Izalco Pro (that I've been but I feel like I've been on the rack after every ride and always have on all bikes other than my old mountain bike.

I'd like to get a more relaxed, steel bike. I need to test some, but I'm not sure whether to go audax, or if that would still be too racey for my measurements, or to go tourer. But then will it be TOO slow with the long wheel base. I might possibly get a racier (endurance) carbon bike in the future if money allows.
Other than the custom steel bike,  I've been riding a cube attain gtc disc in a size 58 for a few years,  prior to that I had a cervelo r3 in a 58 but I think the front end height has been reduced a little on those models now.  I'm fairly certain that the trek domane was similar in terms of stack/reach in a 58, also the majority of the pinnacle road/gravel range is pretty relaxed. I contemplated a fairlight steel frame recently as they do a tall version (56T was around the same as the size 58 bikes above in stack/reach terms), but couldn't afford it so have plumped for a dolan gxc frameset in a size 58 (recommended height 6'1 to 6'4!).

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Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2020, 09:40:40 am »
I'm similar in that I'm only 5'10" (which is tall for someone born in the 1960s!) but I need a high saddle - 30 1/4" from top to BB centre.  The right frame size for me, with a horizontal top tube, is 23" or 23 1/2".  Smaller frames involve something like a 6" drop to the bars.  I find 4" about right (even that's a lot for most people).

No 'nad clearance there.  Because of proportional sizing, I end up with a 90mm stem, which looks slightly stubby on such a large frame.

I can ride a medium size Boardman Team Carbon because that has a taller front end for the commuter/"sportive" crowd.  I'm not keen on sloping top tubes on road bikes, though, as they look slow.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2020, 12:51:16 pm »
Definitely too small, I'm identical I  measurements to you and it wasn't until bike fit+custom frame that I started to be able to interpret geometry charts to know what would fit (stack and reach helped a great deal). 

I'd guess at least 3/4 of road style bikes in the market wouldn't fit us without a huge stack of headset spacers, and that shouldn't be done with anything other than a steel fork steerer.  The 1/4 that would work are in the 'relaxed/sportive' type geometry that's a fairly recent thing so it rules out the vast majority of otp steel frames of old on the second hand market,  you'd have to get very lucky with a used custom frame made for someone equally freaky.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Sorry! I've been AWOL for months. It's great to hear that someone else has the same freaky measurements. What bike(s) do you ride!?

I currently ride a 2013 Focus Izalco Pro (that I've been but I feel like I've been on the rack after every ride and always have on all bikes other than my old mountain bike.

I'd like to get a more relaxed, steel bike. I need to test some, but I'm not sure whether to go audax, or if that would still be too racey for my measurements, or to go tourer. But then will it be TOO slow with the long wheel base. I might possibly get a racier (endurance) carbon bike in the future if money allows.
Other than the custom steel bike,  I've been riding a cube attain gtc disc in a size 58 for a few years,  prior to that I had a cervelo r3 in a 58 but I think the front end height has been reduced a little on those models now.  I'm fairly certain that the trek domane was similar in terms of stack/reach in a 58, also the majority of the pinnacle road/gravel range is pretty relaxed. I contemplated a fairlight steel frame recently as they do a tall version (56T was around the same as the size 58 bikes above in stack/reach terms), but couldn't afford it so have plumped for a dolan gxc frameset in a size 58 (recommended height 6'1 to 6'4!).

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

I got a Fairlight Secan last year in 56 T. It felt too big and looked huge next to my Focus. I realised I didn't actually want a gravel bike too.
I've been toying with the idea of getting a custom frame from Woodrup, but it might be overkill.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2020, 01:44:32 pm »
I've only ever seen one frame with a forward sloping top tube and that was a more mature rider at Ely's annual Hardriders TT, a 25 done in early Feb

I had a track frame from when Team Brite disbanded that had a forward sloping top tube. Built by Donahue as far as I know.

Re: New/Old Bob Jackson World Tour
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2020, 03:42:44 pm »
I am 182cm with c.90cm legs.  My Bob Jackson was supposed to be custom but my Roberts that really was custom has a shorter top tube.  I replaced the stem on the BJ, I never had to change a thing on the Roberts.

 "you'd have to get very lucky with a used custom frame made for someone equally freaky."

My 1987 British Eagle would never have been custom yet it fits me perfectly, having a 62cm frame with a relatively short top tube.  It was made by a small workshop (Eagle Cycle Works, Mochdre, Newtown, Powys SY16 4LD) employing Welsh ex-coal miners and Barry Hoban was their design consultant.

In the mid-80s a quite a number of UK frame makers operated and could offer a variety of sizings.  I bought my first good bike(531 frame) in 1985.  I went to the shop in The Strand, they measured me up and told me to come back in a couple of hours!  When I returned, there was my bike, ready to go and I rode it to Chelmsford station where my car was parked.  I guess they had a stack of ready-made frames, all sizes, and just needed to stick the components on.   When it got nicked I bought the British Eagle Touristique off ebay for £30 (and spent loads more doing it up).

That’s the most romantic version of the enterprise in Newtown I’ve seen. :-)