Author Topic: Pbp finishers list  (Read 7519 times)

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2019, 10:09:18 am »
I guessed that NP was the French equivalent of Not Participating.

I also assume that NH means Not Homologated - I wonder what you had to do to achieve that.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2019, 11:24:02 am »
Cheated in some way or perhaps time penalised beyond their time limit or missing brevet card stamps (I think this applies to a couple of riders I know).

There are a few AUKs listed as NH on the PBP website but listed as finishing PBP on AUK's website, which will slightly complicate things for the Recorder.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2019, 12:20:02 pm »
There’s a guy on Facebook says he got NH for missing “only one stamp”. According to the chip results he missed the control entirely.

AFAIK there was only one (well-publicised) person DQed for rule breaking.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2019, 12:54:43 pm »
I've made a quick stats spreadsheet for what it is worth - I'm sure someone has done another one/ a better one!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iB6afh8ugEp7T8j5URTOVaR5edk1SCJZCVobO2KZv7o/edit?usp=sharing

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2019, 01:35:53 pm »
There’s a guy on Facebook says he got NH for missing “only one stamp”. According to the chip results he missed the control entirely.

AFAIK there was only one (well-publicised) person DQed for rule breaking.
Had  a quick look at chrono course (I've not got round to unistalling it) and the 3 GB  NHs all seem to have a full set of chip times and nothing obviously dodgy.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2019, 03:06:34 pm »
Checking the 2019 PBP results against the repeat offenders listed at http://www.randonneurs.bc.ca/pbp/recidivistes/main.html is interesting. Many of the old hands (male and female) that started PBP19, finished. I wonder whether that cohort’s finish rate was higher or lower than the general finish rate, despite the effects of advancing age.

davocon, I think a more accurate DNF rate ignores those riders that DNSed.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2019, 04:05:51 pm »


davocon, I think a more accurate DNF rate ignores those riders that DNSed.

Thanks, I think I have updated accordingly now.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2019, 09:04:56 am »
There’s a guy on Facebook says he got NH for missing “only one stamp”. According to the chip results he missed the control entirely.

AFAIK there was only one (well-publicised) person DQed for rule breaking.
When I realised my chip was not working reliably, I was told at the control "make sure you dont miss any stamps."

Failure to get a stamp can be rectified by checking the electronic timing record. But with no proof he was there they can't homogulate.

£134 return to Paris + somewhere to sleep on saturday night, I guess I'll just wait for mine to come in the post

Eddington  96miles

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2020, 02:18:23 pm »
A few months back I downloaded all of the chip time data and started extracting some stats from it. Here's as far as I got back then:

Quote
Zero scans (DNS): 276
No start scan (but others): 23
No missing scans: 4377
Made it to Brest: 5536
Made it back to Rambouillet: 4667
Made it back to Rambouillet (missed Dreux): 136
Made it back to Rambouillet (missed Mortagne and Dreux): 111
Started more than 15 minutes late: 59
Started more than 60 minutes late: 7
Most delayed start: 648 minutes (rider J297)
Most delayed start (Sunday): 292 minutes (rider B199)
First person over the start line (Sunday): 16:02:50 (rider A090)
Last person over the start line (Sunday): 21:21:40 (rider U074)
First person over the start line (Monday): 04:18:11 (rider W005)
Last person over the start line (Monday): 05:38:16 (rider Z183)
Started more than 5 minutes early: 25
Started more than 15 minutes early: 5
Started more than 60 minutes early: 0
Most premature start: -40 minutes
In time at every control: 3819
In time at finish, behind at at least one control: 458
Out of time at finish, on time everywhere else: 3
Out of time at finish, behind at at least one control: 97

Obvious caveats about limitations of chip data and possible data mangling at various steps.

I haven't tried correlating any of it with the official results to see what their criteria were.

Edit: Ignore the struckthrough numbers.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2020, 09:23:58 am »
Those 458 people who were behind at at least one control is an interesting stat. I worked my way through the timings for some people and found a few of those. I’m assuming they have been homologated or the finish rates would be even less.

I’ve posted before about following two guys heading to Tinteniac on the way back who pulled over with the intention of giving up as they were out of time for Tinteniac. It may have been they were totally done and couldn’t have made it any further, but they were conversing quite well and didn’t look all-in. If they had perhaps overslept or had mechanical problems and were reasonably fresh they might have made up time.  I think that would haunt me for a long time that I had come so far and may have packed needlessly.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2020, 02:13:18 pm »
I cocked up the numbers earlier. The correct numbers, and the final outcome, are:

Quote
In time at every control: 3112
{ HM: 3101, HD: 2, NH: 8, AB: 1 }
In time at finish, behind at at least one control: 1017
{ HM: 1008, HD: 0, NH: 9, AB: 0 }
Out of time at finish, on time everywhere else: 0
{ HM: 0, HD: 0, NH: 0, AB: 0 }
Out of time at finish, behind at at least one control: 248
{ HM: 81, HD: 163, NH: 4, AB: 0 }

These are for riders with a full set of control scans. There are around a hundred more with at least one scan missing.

Edit: Updated 3/1/20 with corrected corrected numbers

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2020, 02:27:42 pm »
4459 finishers, you have approx 4100 accounted for, that leaves 350ish who officially finished without a digital record.

About 8% failure rate on chip timing.

Strange that you have 27 riders in time everywhere except the finish. the time allowed from Dreux to Rambouillet was very generous as I recall.

Eddington  96miles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2020, 02:36:07 pm »
One 90hr fellow basically lost his mind shortly after leaving Dreux in 2019 and repeatedly lapped some roads for about three hours (seen by other riders) before 'waking up' and heading to the finish about an hour out of time. Some people are at the limit of their endurance before the finish. Surprising but true.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2020, 03:32:41 pm »
4459 finishers, you have approx 4100 accounted for, that leaves 350ish who officially finished without a digital record.

4,359 homologated finishers, 7 of whom are entirely absent from my chip data (could be my fault). 4,190 of them have all their scans. That leaves 162 with at least one missing scan, of which 130 have start scans; 116 have finish scans.

Quote
Strange that you have 27 riders in time everywhere except the finish. the time allowed from Dreux to Rambouillet was very generous as I recall.

Total cockup on my part. I had the 80 hours limit not set to 80 hours in my control closing times list. All of those riders finished in time.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2020, 07:50:19 pm »
Cheated in some way or perhaps time penalised beyond their time limit or missing brevet card stamps (I think this applies to a couple of riders I know).

There are a few AUKs listed as NH on the PBP website but listed as finishing PBP on AUK's website, which will slightly complicate things for the Recorder.

Indeed it does!
Only two on the AUK list who are listed as NH.   Both on 84h starts, both completed within time with all tracking data complete.
I am investigating....

Also trying to disambiguate three cases where it is unclear which of the similarly named AUK members is the one who actually completed   
Most cases can be sorted by a rider's record (or lack) of a qualifying SR, or by a rider's stated club affiliation....but there are always a few....
And when some of the "possibles" don't provide an email address to the AUK membership secretary....     :facepalm:

 

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2020, 02:11:34 pm »
I hope you'll be able to successfully negotiate with the ACP homologation team. There are a couple of instances of missing stamps where they appear to be taking an excessively strict approach, given the supporting evidence available. In the past, that sort of thing may have prompted a time penalty.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2020, 09:17:25 pm »
I hope you'll be able to successfully negotiate with the ACP homologation team. There are a couple of instances of missing stamps where they appear to be taking an excessively strict approach, given the supporting evidence available. In the past, that sort of thing may have prompted a time penalty.

In 2015 I missed a stamp at Loudeac on the way back.  Given the nature of the tracking in 2015 (a mat at the entrance to card stamping room) Id missed both ie it was pretty much impossible to do one and not the other, which struck me as something of a flawed set up at the time (at the controls where I did manage to do the admin properly!) .   

Approaching the finish I recall passing an official near the velodrome a few hundred yards from the bike park announcing to all and sundry that his position represented the finish.  I checked my time (87.5x) and after a bit of faffing about at the finish my card was stamped with 88.0x.

I got a letter a couple of months after the event setting out that I had missed the stamp at Loudaec and proposing a 2 hr time penalty.  I replied (in French) accepting the penalty on the condition that my ride would be validated and pointing out that my presence in Loudeac could be verified by several other riders if required.  In the end I was credited with a 90-00 finish which suited me fine. 

Id say that any rider who missed a stamp in 2019 but was properly tracked has a far stronger case than I did in 2015. 

Good luck.   

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2020, 01:49:13 pm »
A friend checked the numbers of NH at previous PBPs.
1983 - 2
1995 - 1
2007 - 1
2011 - 2
2015 - 3
2019 - 24
Something has changed.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2020, 01:54:26 pm »
A friend checked the numbers of NH at previous PBPs.
1983 - 2
1995 - 1
2007 - 1
2011 - 2
2015 - 3
2019 - 24
Something has changed.

Absolute numbers are meaningless.

What is the total number of riders on each event?

How do things work as a percentage?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2020, 02:01:52 pm »
You can do that yourself but it doesn’t matter anyway! There hasn’t been an order of magnitude increase in PBP entrants between 2015 and 2019.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2020, 04:01:10 pm »
1983 - 2106 starters
1995 - ~3200
2011 - 5002
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2020, 04:18:20 pm »
Do we know what the pre 2019 results looked like before appeals? And is 2019 after appeals already?

How does the system work? If you’re NH do you know before the list is published? Do they ever publish (possibly anonymised) reasons for NH?

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2020, 04:57:52 pm »
NH was virtually unknown before this PBP as it was so uncommon (1 in 1000-2000). That is not the case this time (>1 in 250 in 2019).

Having online tracking and interim results is very new. Most historical appeals and suchlike had been done behind closed doors. What is being asked, who is asking it and how they ask can make a big difference to resolving disputed PBP results.

Sometimes casting a veil over the process is better. In historical times, the accepted wisdom was that the PBP controllers would instantly pull a rider's brevet card at intermediate controls if the rider was too late to that control, unless there was an 'extremely good reason' (assisting at a rider's medical emergency). The riders understood this and worked hard to stay within the control times. Occasionally somebody would arrive a few minutes late to an intermediate control and the controller may have had a 'clock with sticky hands' but it wasn't obvious outside that moment. Now, with staggered starts and online tracking, it is obvious that many riders are checking in significantly late at controls, sometimes at multiple controls. Is that a better situation for PBP and its mystique? I don't think so, given the natural tendency for riders to keep pushing the boundaries.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2020, 11:08:04 am »
What is being asked, who is asking it and how they ask can make a big difference to resolving disputed PBP results.

 ;D  ;D  ;D
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: Pbp finishers list
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2020, 03:47:49 pm »
Here's a chart I've been wanting to make since August of exactly how late homologated riders get to their controls:



HI RES VERSION

The horizontal axis is the closing time of each control. Above the line is on time, below the line is late (according to chip time).

Lines are coloured according to final outcome (green = Homologated, orange = HD, red = Abandonded, purple = Not Homologated.

There's an awful lot of green in that lower right quadrant.