Poll

What does the panel think about the 'bent ''safety flag on a pole'' thing ??

Naff
5 (16.7%)
Not necessary
17 (56.7%)
Necessary
3 (10%)
None of the above.
5 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 30

Voting closed: January 22, 2020, 06:56:37 pm

Author Topic: the 4 N's  (Read 1996 times)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2019, 01:00:33 pm »
Drifting off topic for a second, but I've noticed that my conversations with horse riders of late have tended to be less "yeah, they really don't like the pedalling motion" and more "WTF did that driver think they were doing?"
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2019, 01:41:36 pm »
Tried a flag for a while after friends ranting at the wife, the only difference it made I frightened horses.

What he said^.  Definitely.  I quickly abandoned a flag once I encountered a half tonne horse hopping around immediately in front of me and apparently wanting to occupy the seat that I was in.  There wasn't going to be room for both of us.

Sans-flag and the incident was never repeated.

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2020, 01:59:15 am »
I used flags at first but they only scared the horses.
I find I get more courtesy and space from other road users on the recumbent (flag or no flag) than I ever got on the upright bikes.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2020, 09:51:41 am »

At a Dutch audax, there was a guy with a 3 wheeled recumbent, bright yellow panniers, big yellow flag, reflective streamers on the flag pole, bright yellow jacket. A Dutch person walks up to him and says "You're either an American or a Brit." "American, how could you tell?"

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2020, 12:47:34 pm »
At a Dutch audax, there was a guy with a 3 wheeled recumbent, bright yellow panniers, big yellow flag, reflective streamers on the flag pole, bright yellow jacket. A Dutch person walks up to him and says "You're either an American or a Brit." "American, how could you tell?"

Bet he had a helmet mirror, too.   ;D
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2020, 01:04:33 pm »

Bet he had a helmet mirror, too.   ;D

No the trike had 2 mirrors on the handlebars...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2020, 01:10:17 pm »
No the trike had 2 mirrors on the handlebars...

That's just sensible (you need some sort of mirror to compensate for not being able to look over your shoulder, and the second one is occasionally handy for spotting bicycles creeping up your inside[1], if you've got the room to mount it).  No recumbent dork points there.


[1] Also for riding in ABROAD on widdershins roads, and for racing, shared-use paths, city centres and the like where normal overtaking rules don't apply.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

fd3

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2020, 04:15:47 pm »
I find I get more courtesy and space from other road users on the recumbent (flag or no flag) than I ever got on the upright bikes.
I fin this true on larger, straighter, faster roads.  In parking-heavy residential roads I experience the usual motorist antipathy (but it feels worse because I have less control of the recumbent  - so I share the experience of a new cyclist).
[/I could be wrong]

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2020, 04:30:46 pm »
I find I get more courtesy and space from other road users on the recumbent (flag or no flag) than I ever got on the upright bikes.
I fin this true on larger, straighter, faster roads.  In parking-heavy residential roads I experience the usual motorist antipathy (but it feels worse because I have less control of the recumbent  - so I share the experience of a new cyclist).

Yes.  The recumbent gets equal or better treatment.  Very rarely worse (and that's nearly always verbal[1]).  While you get wider overtakes and more respect at junctions, the magic of WTF-factor is generally powerless against a driver in a race to a traffic-enraging feature or parking space.


[1] I generally work on the principle that motorists who are shouting 'witty' or abusive remarks at you based on your choice of cycle have definitely seen you and are unlikely to drive into you by accident.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2020, 10:22:54 am »
Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2020, 12:57:01 pm »
Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.

I think the first group are vanishingly rare.  It certainly happens, but they'll almost always stop short of physical contact out of fear of scratching their precious vehicle, if not the repercussions of injuring a cyclist.  Much more common are those who will use the vehicle in a risky way to intimidate you, or (particularly if you're on an interesting bike, or considered to be of group that's a suitable target for abuse) resort to verbal or physical assault, possibly without actually dangerous driving.

There's another edge case, which are the drivers who simply don't care.  Usually because they're intoxicated, or in the process of committing a crime (nobody cares about scratching a stolen car).  About the only thing you can do about those is to Be Somewhere Else.  I can think of one occasion in ten years of cycling where I've gone up a random driveway to give a wide berth to a speeding BMW pursued by an unmarked police car, and several where I've thought "this driver might be drunk", usually only after they're safely in front of me.  (There was also that time where I was informed that the driver was drunk after I came round from surgery, but no bicycles were involved.)

But the majority of hazardous drivers are simply not looking properly.  At least the ones who are making lying down on the job jokes, shouting sexist/disablist/homophobic/racist remarks or videoing[1] me are unlikely to drive into me through inattention.


[1] Insert witty comment about how the best way to be seen by a driver is to be on their phone screen.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

fd3

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2020, 03:56:15 pm »
I do think that drivers are more likely to criticise my cycling on a recumbent than on a DF.  Sure, it is less good, but they will stop beside me to object to my not signaling (when I'm cycling straight on, not turning at the intersection or changing lanes - go figure).
[/I could be wrong]

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2020, 04:32:09 pm »
I think the perceived (to drivers) vulnerability of recumbents is more about their ability to fit right underneath a large vehicle.  A flag won't help much with that.
Never tell me the odds.

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2020, 01:01:17 pm »
Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.

As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."

Also "Don't argue with anything bigger than you." (on the road)

It seems to have worked, so far. :thumbsup:
I'm 55 and still here. ;D

fd3

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2020, 11:12:03 am »
I agree with the second point (when cycling with kids from school I teach them to wave and smile at DDs and avoid shouting), I think the first is well-intentioned but is part of the perception that cycling is dangerous. 
[/I could be wrong]

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2020, 11:29:43 am »
Whichever bike I’m on for my own safety I still categorise motorists into two categories. Thos that want to run you off the road and those that haven’t seen you. It’s always nice to find out that I’m wrong, but that happens far to infrequently for my likening.

As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."

Also "Don't argue with anything bigger than you." (on the road)

It seems to have worked, so far. :thumbsup:
I'm 55 and still here. ;D
Mine is "Use the laws of physics.  Don't give them the opportunity to hit you."   You can even reduce the risk of being rear-ended (vanishingly rare already) if you ride far enough out that you can shrink back a foot or two just as the vehicle passes.
Never tell me the odds.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2020, 01:09:36 am »
As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."

I found cycling in Amsterdam a lot easier when I started treating every other cyclist like a London cab that is clearly out to kill you...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2020, 09:36:26 am »
As a child learning to cycle on the road my father told me that "Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you.

I prefer "Assume every driver/pedestrian/other cyclist is about to do the stupidest thing imaginable". It's probably nearer the mark.


Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #43 on: January 08, 2020, 01:51:12 am »
I agree with the second point (when cycling with kids from school I teach them to wave and smile at DDs and avoid shouting), I think the first is well-intentioned but is part of the perception that cycling is dangerous.

"Everyone else on the road is a complete nutter and out to get you. Keep that in mind and you should be alright."

Any activity is dangerous when carried out by an idiot (just take a look in your local A&E),

But He meant it with regards to anytime we were using the roads "walking, cycling, motorbiking, or driving".

It doesn't matter as there is always someone "Bigger" than you, that you have no control over.

The point was it is "Bloody dangerous" on the roads, so keep your wits about you & don't be stupid.

Just because you are obeying the rules doesn't mean 'everyone else is'!

P.S.
He was a keen cyclist and held licences for 'almost' every category inc trains, tracked vehicles & aircraft.
Now that he is sadly no longer with us it's safe to say that his job included looking after a lot of very obnoxious people all over the world, Although some were OK.

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #44 on: January 08, 2020, 01:53:51 am »

Bet he had a helmet mirror, too.   ;D

No the trike had 2 mirrors on the handlebars...

J
Nothing wrong with that. ;)

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #45 on: January 18, 2020, 06:25:06 am »
4Ns? Education needed please!


So, after my earlier response: I don't seem to be able to see the polls in the Android tapatalk app. Hey ho, on a pc at the mo so now understand what's going on.

IMHO using a flag / streamer depends on the situation. I wouldn't use one on a social country lane ride at the weekend. However, slogging the main road on a commute to/from work where there's loads of trucks & busses I'm conisdering using a streamer windsock thing with a blinky inside so the higher vehicles have a higher reference point.

There's no big investment to try this other than time: I have some carbon kite pole and bright coloured ripstop kite fabric in the shed (as long as the mice haven't eaten it!) that I can make one from so will give it a go purely out of interest to see if it makes any difference or not. Need to finish the bike first though.
Rebuilding a PDQ frame to restart my recumbent collection!

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2020, 01:17:57 pm »
Haven't had the'bent  trike out for a year or few, but I found the main purpose of a flag was to keep my Significant Other happy.

I stopped using it after I forgot to remove it before squeezing one of those anti-bike gates that you can get through on a 'bent trike if you duck- I got through but forgot the flag- the flagpole broke and I didn't get around to replacing it.

Being seen really wasn't an issue without a flag. What was an issue was the impatience of cars on busy roads when they couldn't squeeze past like when I was on the upright bike.

Funnily enough the HGVs from the local haulage company (who do a lot of dangerous good haulage) were consistently the best of all- courteous, waiting for a proper space to pass- whether I was on a 'bent trike or upright. They obviously didn't have any problem seeing me in either case!

GC

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2020, 01:26:41 pm »
Funnily enough the HGVs from the local haulage company (who do a lot of dangerous good haulage) were consistently the best of all- courteous, waiting for a proper space to pass- whether I was on a 'bent trike or upright. They obviously didn't have any problem seeing me in either case!

I find that HGVs are consistently the best driven vehicles on the roads.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: the 4 N's
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2020, 04:32:51 pm »
Being seen really wasn't an issue without a flag. What was an issue was the impatience of cars on busy roads when they couldn't squeeze past like when I was on the upright bike.

Funnily enough the HGVs from the local haulage company (who do a lot of dangerous good haulage) were consistently the best of all- courteous, waiting for a proper space to pass- whether I was on a 'bent trike or upright. They obviously didn't have any problem seeing me in either case!

Yeah SMIDSY has got sod all to do with visibility and everything to do with impatient and bad driving and not bloody looking in the first place. But they couldn’t possibly admit that after an accident could they? That’d be explicit acknowledgment it was down to their poor driving skills.
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.