Author Topic: Yet another help me decide thread  (Read 883 times)

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Yet another help me decide thread
« on: January 22, 2020, 06:04:27 pm »
Test rode an Airnimal Joey today, loved it.  I rode the 1x11 derailleur version, having originally thought I'd go for the Rohloff version.  I also rode an 11sp Alfine hubbed tandem a short distance to see how the shifts worked, on that basis I'm now longer clear what the problem is that the Rohloff was solving, and a good discussion on gear ranges suggests that the derailleur version is the one for me.

So far I've taken the top end version with carbon front fork, BB7 Roads and added/changed
- front dyno hub, light mount and Luxos IQ2
- flat bar, with bar ends, MTB trigger shifter.  Casette and derailleur TBC between SRAM adn Shimano.  I really didn't like the SRAM road double tap levers and never use the drops.  I'm also considering in my mind soem Humpert touring bar ends or butterfly type handlebars
- added racks and mudguards
- 26" (559) wheels with 28mm Gatorskins, seems GP4seasons dont come in 559.

What I can't decide on so far is Shimano 1x11, 1x12 or SRAM 1x11?
And colour - as I'm saving on the Rohloff, I'm thinking of a custom colour, can't decide between the standard yellow of the Chameleon, British Racing Green - such an iconic colour, or the nice orange on one of the custom jobs on their website?

What I can definitelysay though is that they are really helpful and friendly bunch letting me head off for a couple of hour test ride and then spending plenty of time talking through options afterwards.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2020, 06:38:16 pm »
Bear in mind that when it first came out, Rohloff didn't have a rival hub with lots of possible gears. I think the best Shimano could come up with at the time was either 7 or 8 speed.
Eating's a serious business. Don't bollocks around wagging your tail.

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2020, 07:14:39 pm »
And also, when the Joey first came out, it had an 8 speed Shimano derailleur system with only 1 chainring (this is way before 1x was a term).
It was 24" wheel only at that point.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2020, 07:37:44 pm »
And also, when the Joey first came out, it had an 8 speed Shimano derailleur system with only 1 chainring (this is way before 1x was a term).
It was 24" wheel only at that point.

Yes, but I can now spec a 1x11 or 1x12, with sufficient gear range, similar to a Rohloff or 11speed Alfine, hence I'm not sure what problem i'm solving. £1K buys a lot of casettes and chains, and I can repair at the roadside
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2020, 07:51:44 pm »
And also, when the Joey first came out, it had an 8 speed Shimano derailleur system with only 1 chainring (this is way before 1x was a term).
It was 24" wheel only at that point.

Yes, but I can now spec a 1x11 or 1x12, with sufficient gear range, similar to a Rohloff or 11speed Alfine, hence I'm not sure what problem i'm solving. £1K buys a lot of casettes and chains, and I can repair at the roadside
I agree. The only problem it might be solving is a cleaner chain run and less mess when folding it - not worth the extra cash IMO. I was trying to point out why it might have been a valued option originally.  ;)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2020, 08:25:51 pm »
A hub gear is less likely to be damaged when transported folded compared to a derailleur.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2020, 11:45:31 pm »
I converted my Joey to Rohloff when a used one I knew the history of came up for sale.  It didn't solve any problem, it's just a different way of doing things which may or may not suit you.  Previous to the conversion it was 3 X 9 without issue.  It's my second Joey, the first was an Nexus 8, no problems to solve with that either.  Although the Rohloff in the Joey is fine, they're not a perfect match, you still need a chain tensioner and the torque fitting can make refitting the wheel fiddly.  The cable run isn't ideal, it makes the shift a little stiffer than on my full size Rohloff bike, not enough to be an issue except when I change back from riding the Joey for a while I accidentally shift two gears at a time till I adjust.  The arguments for a Rohloff are the same as with any bike, reliability and lack of maintenance, it's a big cost up front, but they're very economical to run. What is the price difference? Not sure I'd spend too much on custom paint, firstly because I like the Cambridge Blue and also because both of mine have been a bit fragile, not the worst finish I've had, just not the best either.
Enjoy your new bike.

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 07:44:09 am »
The Rohloff is not very efficient in some of its gears.  The derailleur system suffers a lot less in this respect.  Rohloff support is probably a lot better than Shimano.  If a  Shimano hub breaks, it's generally easier to replace the entire hub than it is to find someone who can repair it.

I assume the 1x derailleur system includes the proper clutched rear mech?  Without one, you need a chain catcher and/or a thick-thin chainring, or it will occasionally dump the chain during shifts.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2020, 09:16:35 am »
The Rohloff is not very efficient in some of its gears.  The derailleur system suffers a lot less in this respect. 
"Not very"... "A lot less"...  here's some numbers
https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/




Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2020, 12:09:44 pm »
I assume the 1x derailleur system includes the proper clutched rear mech?  Without one, you need a chain catcher and/or a thick-thin chainring, or it will occasionally dump the chain during shifts.
They used to have chain guards as per this pic.  Though that's from a long time ago!
Airnimal Joey. by duncancmartin, on Flickr

Blodwyn Pig

  • what a nice chap

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2020, 12:54:27 pm »
A hub gear is less likely to be damaged when transported folded compared to a derailleur.

I'll be looking to get one of their cases as well if I'm transporting by airline.  I'm not intending commuting with it at this stage, would be looking at it as an easily transportable road bike, so in the back of a car with first fold when I'm away with work and I can find time to ride.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2020, 01:10:10 pm »
Hardcases usually mean flying in and out of the same airport and storing the case somewhere. Trailer conversions of hardcases are less popular than you might think.

Oneway trips lend themselves to minimal bags that can be transported on the bike. A bike that is less fragile when folded is an advantage in those circumstances.

HK and I have flown, trained and even bussed with various bikes overseas and haven't used hardcases in the past decade. YMMV
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2020, 01:35:44 pm »
The Rohloff is not very efficient in some of its gears.  The derailleur system suffers a lot less in this respect. 
"Not very"... "A lot less"...  here's some numbers
https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/
The Rohloff losses, being quite stable (in watts) for a given ratio, become a smaller percentage at higher power inputs.  I don't know how many touring cyclists develop 200W average.  Racers do, but they are more interested in marginal gains so won't ride a Rohloff.  I'd be interested in a 125W line on the charts; I put out about that on a very long ride (this is an average: it can go to over 500W up short hills).

The s/s lines are almost identical for 50W and 200W, suggesting that chain losses are proportional to power.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2020, 01:39:40 pm »
 my experience is, 1) hiring a bike in Austria, they were mostly catering for the MTB crowd, the bike they hired me was trek triple with issues in the gearshifts, 2) borrowing a hard case from a friend to go to Majorca for a week, that worked well 3) leaving my car at a fixed point and going from/to there or taking my car and doing day rides

I'm definitely not going for the trailer option though, and if my needs change to a point to point tour, then I can reevaluate at that point. In July, its a family holiday with me doing two or three day rides from the hotel.

The choice for me now, is what colour and which gearing.
I didn't lke the SRAM doubetap, but I assume that their MTB shifters are the same as shimano with one paddle for up and one for down? Which would work on the flat bar.

Good point on the clutched derailleur, will flag that as the Endurance is an open chainring
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2020, 02:04:21 pm »
The Rohloff is not very efficient in some of its gears.  The derailleur system suffers a lot less in this respect. 
"Not very"... "A lot less"...  here's some numbers
https://www.cyclingabout.com/speed-difference-testing-gearbox-systems/
The Rohloff losses, being quite stable (in watts) for a given ratio, become a smaller percentage at higher power inputs.  I don't know how many touring cyclists develop 200W average. 
Here's some more numbers, from the Kyle and Berto testing, different methods so different results.  I know people have been questioning their methods for twenty years, though there's a Shimano triple tested alongside for comparison.

Rohloff  %
80W     89.1   90.3    87.8    90.3    87.5    87.8    86.1    89.7    90.8    87.7    89.7    87.1   87.8   86.1
150W   90.6   92.5    89.9    92.2    89.6    91.0    89.9    92.6    92.7    90.4   92.3    90.4    89.7   89.1
200W   91.3   92.5   90.9     93.4    90.5    90.9    90.2    92.8    92.7    91.1   93.5    90.0    91.1   90.4
http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/hp52-2001.pdf

Pay your money and take your choice, for most people there'll be plenty of improvements that will yield more than the difference between gearing systems. 
I like the Shimano 8, previously had a Nexus now have an Alfine, they're supposed to be even more inefficient, yet my times over regular routes are the same regardless, Alfine, Rohloff, Campag. I'm not a racer.

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2020, 02:08:27 pm »
I'll be looking to get one of their cases as well if I'm transporting by airline. 
Isn't the hard case too big to go as standard airline luggage?  If it is, I don't see the advantage over a hard case and full size bike.

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2020, 03:06:41 pm »
Hub gear or derailleur means different maintenance regimes and different roadside fixability.  I quite like hub gears but they do have their drawbacks. So do derailleurs;  with any derailleur geared bike if the chain gets dirty and I carry on riding on it, after between about 500 and 1000 further miles then the chain -even if it was new- is liable to be at the point at which it is wearing the cassette such that it won't take a new chain any more.   With an IGH you can be much more cavalier with chain maintenance and it takes a lot of neglect to end up with a large-sized bill or a problem at the end of it.

So Rohloff offers reasonable efficiency, a wide range of gears, excellent reliability, low maintenance and furthermore the gear ratios are uniformly spaced.

Other hub gears are not like that; all the shimano ones (8-11s) feel spongy in some gears (presumably because of the roller clutches) and the A11 feels very inefficient to me. Pick of the bunch (if the gear range/spacing suits you) is a premium nexus 8 or an Alfine 8 (which are very similar internally).

1x systems are in fashion right now but I don't think they are anything special; to me they make least sense on the road, because you usually end up 'tapping along' on the flat using a dismal sprocket about 14T in size, and a rubbish chainline, if the gear range is set up for touring.  Oh, and if odd sized gear intervals irritate you, don't get a 1x; the intervals are all over the place; much more erratic than even quite poor hub gears.

cheers

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2020, 04:41:58 pm »
I'll be looking to get one of their cases as well if I'm transporting by airline. 
Isn't the hard case too big to go as standard airline luggage?  If it is, I don't see the advantage over a hard case and full size bike.

It will quite happily fit in the BA hold spec, and as as afrequent flyer I get an extra hold bag for free as well
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2020, 06:19:22 pm »
SA 3 speeds are very efficient, not far off the theoretical maximum (97% per epicyclic).  Only 3 speeds, though.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2020, 07:00:50 pm »
I'll be looking to get one of their cases as well if I'm transporting by airline. 
Isn't the hard case too big to go as standard airline luggage?  If it is, I don't see the advantage over a hard case and full size bike.

It will quite happily fit in the BA hold spec, and as as afrequent flyer I get an extra hold bag for free as well
Excellent - my Rohloff originated in another Airnimal that toured China several times using the hard case and trailer, I know he had to pay baggage for that, though I don't know with which airline.

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Yet another help me decide thread
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2020, 09:55:13 pm »
Hub gear or derailleur means different maintenance regimes and different roadside fixability.  I quite like hub gears but they do have their drawbacks. So do derailleurs;  with any derailleur geared bike if the chain gets dirty and I carry on riding on it, after between about 500 and 1000 further miles then the chain -even if it was new- is liable to be at the point at which it is wearing the cassette such that it won't take a new chain any more.   With an IGH you can be much more cavalier with chain maintenance and it takes a lot of neglect to end up with a large-sized bill or a problem at the end of it.

So Rohloff offers reasonable efficiency, a wide range of gears, excellent reliability, low maintenance and furthermore the gear ratios are uniformly spaced.

Other hub gears are not like that; all the shimano ones (8-11s) feel spongy in some gears (presumably because of the roller clutches) and the A11 feels very inefficient to me. Pick of the bunch (if the gear range/spacing suits you) is a premium nexus 8 or an Alfine 8 (which are very similar internally).

1x systems are in fashion right now but I don't think they are anything special; to me they make least sense on the road, because you usually end up 'tapping along' on the flat using a dismal sprocket about 14T in size, and a rubbish chainline, if the gear range is set up for touring.  Oh, and if odd sized gear intervals irritate you, don't get a 1x; the intervals are all over the place; much more erratic than even quite poor hub gears.

cheers

On the 11-42 I rode I was generally just to the right of midline, so around the 50x17 or 19 mark which seemed like a reasonably good chainline at audax speeds. We talked about ranges, and the concept of 500% being a touring range. I'll not be doimg fully loaded touring, audaxes, maybe a few days touring between B&Bs
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens