Author Topic: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?  (Read 2014 times)

Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« on: February 16, 2020, 12:47:02 pm »
 Today was the bike jumble at St Junien. As usual lots of racing kit of all ages and a bit of mtb. Racing here means massed start road racing (and a few sportives) even if the buyers are not competitors!
On the way home the thought crossed my mind that a lot of tt machines would fall foul of strict Eroica rules due to the cut-off date.
So why not an event for "vintage" tt bikes - but with rules a lot freer than Eroica. No limitations on indexing, hidden cables, automatic pedals other than what could have been available at the time. Some limitations on aero bars.and disc wheels again depending on availability and legality at the time. Extra liberty for riders using a frame that they had from new and modernised with the passing years, decades etc (ie a frame that the competitor had new in the 70's or 80's and had since fitted with new wheels, transmission etc to remain competitive). This last rule would obviously demand a lot of common sense and give-and-take from participants.
 Would there be any enthusiasm for such an event? Should it be a real tt or just a fun meeting? Should the rules be aligned on UK or UCI rules (this would only serve for a guide to what was permitted on a given age of machine)? Would a cut-off date of 2000 seem appropriate to allow some of the interesting machines)? Should there be an age standard for bikes like for riders (with possibility to accumulate the two  :) ) What distance?  Does something like this exist already?
This isn't in the racing board because I'm not sure it would be a race!

Any thoughts welcome. I am not offering to organise!!!!

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2020, 12:55:59 pm »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2020, 02:50:24 pm »
I don't really understand what you're aiming for, but
Road-bike TTs are thriving, and "non-aero" have also been popular. So there is demand out there for weird categories :-)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles


Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2020, 03:52:15 pm »
There are some absolutely beautiful 70s/80s TT bikes.  There’s a guy on the TT forum that builds and restores them.  I’d love one of the short wheelbase curved steel lo-pros with a 650 front wheel, but storage is an issue.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2020, 05:00:22 pm »
There are some absolutely beautiful 70s/80s TT bikes.  There’s a guy on the TT forum that builds and restores them.  I’d love one of the short wheelbase curved steel lo-pros with a 650 front wheel, but storage is an issue.

He has a nice garden too.

S2L

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2020, 05:42:36 pm »
The Eroica spirit is that of freezing time to 1987... anything prior to that is game anything after is frawned upon.

With TT bikes is a bit different as 1987 is probably when you start seeing the first dedicated machines... so you need to define an era

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2020, 06:13:53 pm »
So doesn't that make 1987 an appropriate point for Eroica TT too? IIRC 1987 was chosen originally as being more or less the beginning of indexed gearing, clipless pedals and so on. If it's also a turning point in TTs – a before and after point – then it makes sense to do Eroica TTs on pre-87 bikes. If an Eroica TT makes sense at all.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2020, 06:26:40 pm »
The first aerobars used in RAAM were mid-80s, well before the triathletes used them, so a 1987 date cutoff for TT bikes could be justifiable. There were plenty of low profile TT bikes in the mid-80s, so interesting to see.

https://www.triathlete.com/2010/07/culture/lifestyle/was-the-first-aerobar-really-not-the-first_11039
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2020, 06:50:53 pm »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2020, 08:20:05 pm »
The Eroica spirit is that of freezing time to 1987... anything prior to that is game anything after is frawned upon.

With TT bikes is a bit different as 1987 is probably when you start seeing the first dedicated machines... so you need to define an era

Well that wasn't quite what I had in mind. I was more thinking of something where machines of all eras could be on the course at the same time (which is why I have my doubts about a "serious" race).

I think there needs to be a cut-off date if only to define the nature of the event. Otherwise there is nothing to stop half the field turning up on the latest machines which rather spoils the object of the exercise, especially if there is a field size of 120. But the cut-off date in my view has to be late enough to allow for example Mig's Pinarellos or some of Graham Obree's designs. What started the thought was the idea that Bernard Hinault's Gitane (I forget the year but mid-80's, inside the Eroica period) would be ineligible for an event under Eroica rules. It seems unreasonable that machines like that should be confined to museums rather than going out on the road from time to time. I don't see any reason why a 1950's fixed wheel shouldn't be in the same event as a 70's uswb machine or the Pinarello, provided that the thing is organised in the right spirit.
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

I am not sure that the role of the UCI in changing the construction rules is a major point. At any era the bikes are what they are because of the circumstances in which they were built and used. The moment that one accepts that from a purely nostalgic point of view the bikes are presented such as they are the rules become irrelevant. The only real reason for wanting to free the period conformity thing up is so that bikes can be seen and used as they really were, rather than forcing wholesale rebuilding to make them "authentic". (and there really shouldn't be any serious conformity rules that could create arguments; it should remain a fun thing. If not done for the pleasure then there's not much point to it)

guidon

  • formerly known as cyclone
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2020, 08:23:46 pm »
Why not indeed Jo??? To the real fans frames aren't cheap however lots of bargains on Uk ebay if you look.... ;)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2020, 08:29:37 pm »
Then go for 'last century' machines. Lots of interesting TT options.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2020, 06:38:35 pm »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!

S2L

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2020, 07:01:43 pm »
So doesn't that make 1987 an appropriate point for Eroica TT too? IIRC 1987 was chosen originally as being more or less the beginning of indexed gearing, clipless pedals and so on. If it's also a turning point in TTs – a before and after point – then it makes sense to do Eroica TTs on pre-87 bikes. If an Eroica TT makes sense at all.

I did the retroronde twice... the second time they had a criterium race for period bikes on the cobbled town centre of Oudenaarde... loved it...

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #15 on: February 17, 2020, 07:06:51 pm »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!

I think the problem is that the super shoes haven't been banned

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2020, 07:11:43 pm »
What started the thought was the idea that Bernard Hinault's Gitane (I forget the year but mid-80's, inside the Eroica period) would be ineligible for an event under Eroica rules. It seems unreasonable that machines like that should be confined to museums rather than going out on the road from time to time.
Agreed it seems unreasonable to confine any bike that is in a fit state to ride to a museum, but what is there in the Eroica rules that would ban Hinault's Gitane? I don't know offhand what bike we're talking about but google suggests this one?
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #17 on: February 17, 2020, 07:15:47 pm »
I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!

I'm not sure how an event that specifies a type of bike that isn't used in the mainstream events *isn't* about the technology.  Just because it's based in nostalgia or accessibility rather than performance gains (HPV racing is that way -->) doesn't change that...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #18 on: February 17, 2020, 07:28:41 pm »
Then go for 'last century' machines. Lots of interesting TT options.
Sounds like a plan  :thumbsup: So 2000-12-31 or earlier, yeah?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2020, 11:14:06 pm »
What started the thought was the idea that Bernard Hinault's Gitane (I forget the year but mid-80's, inside the Eroica period) would be ineligible for an event under Eroica rules. It seems unreasonable that machines like that should be confined to museums rather than going out on the road from time to time.
Agreed it seems unreasonable to confine any bike that is in a fit state to ride to a museum, but what is there in the Eroica rules that would ban Hinault's Gitane? I don't know offhand what bike we're talking about but google suggests this one?


The Gitane Delta was the interesting mid-80s TT bike, not the Gitane Profil above.
http://velos-mont-valerien.over-blog.com/article-le-gitane-delta-tt-83149429.html
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #20 on: February 17, 2020, 11:22:40 pm »
Because of the wing bars, presumably. As they're period correct, though not typical, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be allowed in Eroica?
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

S2L

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2020, 06:03:58 am »
What started the thought was the idea that Bernard Hinault's Gitane (I forget the year but mid-80's, inside the Eroica period) would be ineligible for an event under Eroica rules. It seems unreasonable that machines like that should be confined to museums rather than going out on the road from time to time.
Agreed it seems unreasonable to confine any bike that is in a fit state to ride to a museum, but what is there in the Eroica rules that would ban Hinault's Gitane? I don't know offhand what bike we're talking about but google suggests this one?


The Gitane Delta was the interesting mid-80s TT bike, not the Gitane Profil above.
http://velos-mont-valerien.over-blog.com/article-le-gitane-delta-tt-83149429.html

I like how already back then they were coming out with over inflated power saving figures...  :thumbsup:

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2020, 09:59:09 am »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!

I think the problem is that the super shoes haven't been banned

OK - under consideration is the latest. The principle stands though, should every club runner have to spend ££££££ just to be competitive?

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2020, 10:15:54 am »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!
This is just odd to me. Cycling is a technology sport, it's the quintessential industrial-era form of athletics. The entire point of cycling is to marry technology to the human, to gain speed and performance someone just running around wouldn't be able to sustain. The pursuit of elite performance on cycles should be encouraged to innovate in order to drive improvements for cycling at large in a trickle-down way. I don't think it's a coincidence that road cycling innovation has stifled since the UCI introduced their frame proportion rules, and all the new ideas seem to be pinched from MTB etc. We can also see how prescriptions on bike specification such as the NJS system for Kierin actually makes the products less accessible over time. An NJS compliant Dura Ace kierin track drivetrain (chainset, BB, cog) is nearly double the cost of Campagnolo Record Pista set.

The idea that the 'non compliant' bikes are 'dangerous' can't be right, triathletes use non compliant bikes and components all the time and it does them no harm. See e.g. the Felt IA disc or the Diamondback.





In my view the act of stifling innovation has been a huge boon to the big bike manufacturers; it lets them collect rents on the cycling industry since the barrier to entry for new suppliers is higher.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD



Ban cars.

S2L

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2020, 10:29:08 am »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!

I think the problem is that the super shoes haven't been banned

OK - under consideration is the latest. The principle stands though, should every club runner have to spend ££££££ just to be competitive?

Yes... it's capitalism, innit?