Author Topic: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?  (Read 1160 times)

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2020, 10:56:28 am »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!
This is just odd to me. Cycling is a technology sport, it's the quintessential industrial-era form of athletics. The entire point of cycling is to marry technology to the human, to gain speed and performance someone just running around wouldn't be able to sustain. The pursuit of elite performance on cycles should be encouraged to innovate in order to drive improvements for cycling at large in a trickle-down way. I don't think it's a coincidence that road cycling innovation has stifled since the UCI introduced their frame proportion rules, and all the new ideas seem to be pinched from MTB etc. We can also see how prescriptions on bike specification such as the NJS system for Kierin actually makes the products less accessible over time. An NJS compliant Dura Ace kierin track drivetrain (chainset, BB, cog) is nearly double the cost of Campagnolo Record Pista set.

The idea that the 'non compliant' bikes are 'dangerous' can't be right, triathletes use non compliant bikes and components all the time and it does them no harm. See e.g. the Felt IA disc or the Diamondback.





In my view the act of stifling innovation has been a huge boon to the big bike manufacturers; it lets them collect rents on the cycling industry since the barrier to entry for new suppliers is higher.

My eyes.....

I thought the Cervelo P5X was fugly….

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2020, 11:03:31 am »
I used to have that attitude. But in time I began to revel in the disregard for the tyranny of the UCI's stifling rules, with their ghastly measuring tapes and wagging fingers. Why should some Swiss-resident technocrat with fixations on 'podium girls' and sock heights be in charge of the shape of bikes? To blazes with their 'authority' that's what I say.

Probably worth bearing in mind that many excellent production bikes like Moutlons are banned by the UCI too. Moultons were being raced pretty hard until the UCI banned them. http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/heritage.html#recordsracing







YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2020, 11:34:34 am »
Surely railing against the UCI is a bit of a misnomer.   UK TTs aren't UCI regulated so you just need to comply with CTT regs.   For the record I couldn't use my current race bike as it's fixed.

Of the current super bikes I like the Giant Trinity and the Trek Speed Concept.   Still quite aesthetically pleasing whilst aero.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2020, 11:37:35 am »
I mean there are all sorts of reasons to despise the UCI, their mailed-fisted grip on the cycling industry with their stupid rules is but one.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #29 on: February 18, 2020, 12:20:09 pm »
The idea that the 'non compliant' bikes are 'dangerous' can't be right, triathletes use non compliant bikes and components all the time and it does them no harm. See e.g. the Felt IA disc or the Diamondback.
Surely anything used by a triathlete has to be road legal and therefore will have passed tests and/or comply with standards for road bikes prescribed by the EU, US, etc? That, plus the manufacturers' concern for their reputations and legal costs etc, and normal engineering concerns, should keep them safe regardless of anything the UCI might rule.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #30 on: February 18, 2020, 01:41:22 pm »
Isn't the bar for road-legality basically "appropriate brakes and doesn't immediately fall to bits"?  I mean, we're all at liberty to buy or molish a road-legal pedal cycle of a type that even the HPV racers[1] wouldn't permit without modification.

Mass-produced machines are going to be governed by liability, and given the average bike spends most of its life rusting in a shed, it's only the high-end minority that are likely to have a reputation worth protecting and get ridden enough to injure anyone.



[1] We're less fussy about brakes and falling to bits, but have a rule about spiky bits.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #31 on: February 18, 2020, 01:56:22 pm »
I mean there are all sorts of reasons to despise the UCI, their mailed-fisted grip on the cycling industry with their stupid rules is but one.

I have a lot of things in my life to be angry about.   This is not one of them.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2020, 01:57:50 pm »
Isn't the bar for road-legality basically "appropriate brakes and doesn't immediately fall to bits"?  I mean, we're all at liberty to buy or molish a road-legal pedal cycle of a type that even the HPV racers[1] wouldn't permit without modification.

Mass-produced machines are going to be governed by liability, and given the average bike spends most of its life rusting in a shed, it's only the high-end minority that are likely to have a reputation worth protecting and get ridden enough to injure anyone.



[1] We're less fussy about brakes and falling to bits, but have a rule about spiky bits.
Sloppy writing on my part, sorry. There's a difference between road legality, as you describe, and CUR or whatever the term is for pedal cycles; the ENxxxx that has replaced BS6102, which does include requirements for things like frame strength.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2020, 02:14:56 pm »
There's a difference between road legality, as you describe, and CUR or whatever the term is for pedal cycles; the ENxxxx that has replaced BS6102, which does include requirements for things like frame strength.

Gosh, how had I not come across this before?

Presumably the average BSO is able to comply...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2020, 06:01:20 pm »
I am wiping the blood off my keyboard... I think the point was that safety comes from manufacture not UCI compliance.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2020, 06:33:43 pm »
I am wiping the blood off my keyboard... I think the point was that safety comes from manufacture not UCI compliance.

Sure, but safety in a competition environment isn't necessarily the same as safety on the road, and there's plenty of precedent for competition organisers/insurers/governing bodies to impose all sorts of rules on the grounds of avoiding things that may cause bikes to handle differently in ways that aren't desirable in a close group, or to avoid having too much stabby stuff around during a pile-up.  See also: Mandating PPE.

Not saying it's necessarily sensible, or effective.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2020, 07:57:53 pm »
Yes... I think we're in furious agreement here...
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2020, 09:22:26 pm »
I used to have that attitude. But in time I began to revel in the disregard for the tyranny of the UCI's stifling rules, with their ghastly measuring tapes and wagging fingers. Why should some Swiss-resident technocrat with fixations on 'podium girls' and sock heights be in charge of the shape of bikes? To blazes with their 'authority' that's what I say

Until recently the responsible manager at the UCI was from Nuneaton and Lived in France. He lost the job when the Presidency changed, but now works with manufacturers to secure approval for new products. The sock height rule is about maintaining a level playing field aerodynamically. I don’t know his views on podium girls as this is nothing to do with the UCI, but is the responsibility of race organisers. He did, by the way, qualify for PBP
Within CTT and Triathlon there are much fewer rules - and it’s generally accepted that competitors can buy speed . When I was young I had one affordable race bike for road races and time trials. Now schoolboys and juniors need parents with very deep pockets to compete in time trials. Less fortunate youngsters, and adults, are excluded for financial reasons. That can’t be good for the sport.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2020, 11:40:39 pm »
It is to do with the UCI. They are responsible for the sport, they could outlaw them as they do high socks and whatever else as a condition of being UCI-certified, but they don't. It's a sick joke. The best they could do was make rules about 'more respectful' podium ceremonies. https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-to-roll-out-guidelines-for-more-respectful-podium-ceremonies/
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2020, 07:11:07 am »
...
 When I was young I had one affordable race bike for road races and time trials. Now schoolboys and juniors need parents with very deep pockets to compete in time trials. Less fortunate youngsters, and adults, are excluded for financial reasons. That can’t be good for the sport.

hear hear.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2020, 08:52:32 am »
I used to have that attitude. But in time I began to revel in the disregard for the tyranny of the UCI's stifling rules, with their ghastly measuring tapes and wagging fingers. Why should some Swiss-resident technocrat with fixations on 'podium girls' and sock heights be in charge of the shape of bikes? To blazes with their 'authority' that's what I say

Until recently the responsible manager at the UCI was from Nuneaton and Lived in France. He lost the job when the Presidency changed, but now works with manufacturers to secure approval for new products. The sock height rule is about maintaining a level playing field aerodynamically. I don’t know his views on podium girls as this is nothing to do with the UCI, but is the responsibility of race organisers. He did, by the way, qualify for PBP
Within CTT and Triathlon there are much fewer rules - and it’s generally accepted that competitors can buy speed . When I was young I had one affordable race bike for road races and time trials. Now schoolboys and juniors need parents with very deep pockets to compete in time trials. Less fortunate youngsters, and adults, are excluded for financial reasons. That can’t be good for the sport.

More regulation makes it more expensive to compete, not less.  Anyone with a good brain can invent equipment that is better than what already exists, but to invent something that is better but still looks the same as the old equipment, and then to put it through all the raft of tests required before it's allowed to compete: that takes serious financial resources.

Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2020, 09:02:16 am »
...
 When I was young I had one affordable race bike for road races and time trials. Now schoolboys and juniors need parents with very deep pockets to compete in time trials. Less fortunate youngsters, and adults, are excluded for financial reasons. That can’t be good for the sport.

hear hear.

There's ways round this, though.   One of our best espoirs, and now double transcontinental winner, shattered our club 10 and 25 records on a bike he borrowed from one of the coaches.   There's also a very good article where Aerocoach built Richard Bussell a bike for under a grand that he won the National 10 champs on.  I agree it's not cheap but you can race on a budget.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2020, 09:41:26 am »
More regulation makes it more expensive to compete, not less.  Anyone with a good brain can invent equipment that is better than what already exists, but to invent something that is better but still looks the same as the old equipment, and then to put it through all the raft of tests required before it's allowed to compete: that takes serious financial resources.
Exactly. It doesn't make sense at first glance, but regulating the kit has correlated with the racing becoming more expensive and less accessible. It's the same with motor vehicles; the top tiers of motoring (i.e. F1) has led to innovations that makes motoring cheaper down the 'grade'. Indeed it wasn't long ago that driving was a hobby pursuit for monied gentlemen, now every other bugger has a car and for not a lot of dough you can have one that is very quick indeed.

Contrast this with NJS-regulated Keirin, which has made 'standardised' bikes ludicrously expensive. The cheapest NJS-certified track frame I can find online is £580 and this is a design and manufacture that hasn't changed in decades. https://alexscycle.com/collections/njs-frames/products/lightning-njs-frame-fixie-edition-1

If the idea was really to measure 'pure athletic performance' then we should just mandate everyone uses plain gauge aluminium frames with cheapo steel forks, 26" wheels and v brakes with a minimum weight of 13 kg and just call it a day.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Re: Why not an "Eroica" style event for tt machines?
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2020, 08:58:50 pm »
There is a fun UCI Bandit Bike Facebook group which is full of people posting pictures of old school TT speed machines before the UCI came and ruined everything.

https://m.facebook.com/groups/1798978930380412?refid=0

Ruined?

I can’t altogether get the anti-UCI  stance. The UCI are concerned to
- keep cycling as an athletic rather than technology sport ( note, the “super shoes” for the recent marathon record have been banned for similar reasons)
- ensure that cycles are safe - so no dangerously fragile components, dangerous positions etc
Obviously companies frequently test the limits, but at least so far cycling is about the riders performance.

The “ road bike” or “eroica” events fit these guidelines anyway. I was saddened to see a triathlon aimed article in a magazine about how to buy speed!

I think the problem is that the super shoes haven't been banned

OK - under consideration is the latest. The principle stands though, should every club runner have to spend ££££££ just to be competitive?

They've banned 'prototypes' and allowed stack height of up to 40mm(!!), which somewhat fortuitously allows the latest Nike alphafly next % ...

personally id limit stack height to something under half that (5 or 6mm would suit me, but) and ban what ever plate structure seemed to give the advantage:)