Author Topic: (2x) 12sp road gearing  (Read 1991 times)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
(2x) 12sp road gearing
« on: February 21, 2020, 01:02:55 am »
(my late night musings)

having mainly ridden on 10 and 9 speed gears i've never felt the need to move to 11sp  so far.

however, looking at the 11-34* 12sp cassette it suddenly seems like a versatile and attractive one-size-fits-all solution for a road bike, with small gaps and wide range.

for speed oriented riders it would work great with 52/36 chainset, from racing on the flat roads to riding in the mountains.

for more relaxed riders 46/30 would provide all the range and gears they need, in fact this setup would suit 90% of all cyclists both for road and gravel riding.

a new dura ace 12sp groupset should be released this year, but i'm looking forward to this system at 105/ultegra/(grx) levels and made for the regular hyperglide freehubs (i don't want to see micro spline appearing on road groupsets and no silly 10t sprocket either, please).

does anyone else think 12sp is a good idea?


*11-12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-28-31-34 looks like the optimal spread, but so far available only from far-eastern no name outfits..

LMT

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2020, 07:09:39 am »
In principle, who would not want more gears. In reality it's meh, an opportunity to flog to the consumer something which they don't really need imo. A fool and their money though... ;D

The spread of gears that you have listed I would expect the bottom five or six gears to have only a one sprocket difference otherwise you are running the same spread as you would an 11sp.


Blodwyn Pig

  • what a nice chap
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2020, 08:26:44 am »
^^^. Whs.  I've upgraded Olive, from 10 sp to ........7 sp x3 (13-28). Super gear range for me , with a 46,36,26.  Friction levers, simplicity itself.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2020, 08:35:02 am »
^^^. Whs.  I've upgraded Olive, from 10 sp to ........7 sp x3 (13-28). Super gear range for me , with a 46,36,26.  Friction levers, simplicity itself.

Yep, I still recall touring on my Trek 520 with that setup and friction thumbies. A close second was the Campag 3 x 9.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2020, 08:46:21 am »
You can buy 11 speed* 11-34 cassettes. I don’t know what going up to 12 speed makes them suddenly special?

(and 10 speed and 9 speed and ...)

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2020, 08:51:34 am »
I only bought my first 11 speed bike last year, having been on 10 speed for about 8 years and 8 speed before then, so I guess by the time I am ready for a new bike, we’ll know if 12 speed caught on or not.
I am often asked, what does YOAV stand for? It stands for Yoav On A Velo

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2020, 09:00:24 am »
In principle, who would not want more gears. In reality it's meh, an opportunity to flog to the consumer something which they don't really need imo. A fool and their money though... ;D

The spread of gears that you have listed I would expect the bottom five or six gears to have only a one sprocket difference otherwise you are running the same spread as you would an 11sp.

10 or 9 speed cover my needs, but i have a selection of cassettes to swap around and it's a (small) faff few times a year. 12 sp would save that faff. campag does 11-34 with 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-22-25-29-34, but i'd find it too tight in the middle requiring double shifts (having ridden other straight through cassettes).

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2020, 09:06:58 am »
You can buy 11 speed* 11-34 cassettes. I don’t know what going up to 12 speed makes them suddenly special?

(and 10 speed and 9 speed and ...)

it would have the same range but smaller gaps and suit riding on flat roads better, with almost no drawbacks compared to 11sp (weaker chains?..)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2020, 09:19:33 am »
^^^. Whs.  I've upgraded Olive, from 10 sp to ........7 sp x3 (13-28). Super gear range for me , with a 46,36,26.  Friction levers, simplicity itself.

i still have 3x7 on one of the bikes, works fine just feels a bit clunky and .. what's the word.. unsophisticated :D

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2020, 09:25:38 am »
^^^. Whs.  I've upgraded Olive, from 10 sp to ........7 sp x3 (13-28). Super gear range for me , with a 46,36,26.  Friction levers, simplicity itself.

I run 3 x 9 speed on recumbent with friction bar ends. Originally I ran the rear indexed. I have a 10 speed turbo wheel so was frequently changing the lever between index and friction. But I just left it on friction one day and have decided I prefer it that way. Easy to change gear and muscle memory seems to dictate you shift it just the right amount each time. Plus of course I can have whatever speed I want on the back without needing any further adjustments
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 09:45:20 am »
What is the difference: the 12T cog?  Hardly a revolutionary change! 

Do I find it a problem having a gap between 11 and 13? 
- No if I am doing anything long distance, my cadence is flexible enough that I don't find gaps between gears a problem, and rarely go below the 13T in any case - I would probably go for a cassette starting at 13 or 14T if available.
- Yes if I am racing (TTs or crits), but then I would not need the 34 or 31 (My racing setups have 11-28 10-speed and that works fine)

I suppose it would enable some people to use the same cassette for everything they do.  But I use much lower gears for long distance, an 11-40 at the moment. 

I expect I'll have to buy it at some point as 10-speed will start to get hard to find, but I can safely say that I cannot think of a single problem that I, personally, have that it would solve. 

S2L

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2020, 09:52:58 am »
My view is that 11 speed was one cog too many for a traditional cable operated derailleur. 12 speed is likely to have even closer-packed sprockets, which means the tolerances of a cable derailleur are probably a bit too narrow for comfort. Typically all is well when components are new, the chain well lubricated, everything is clean, but 200 km after in winter and things are covered in grime and suddenly not so happy anymore.

If you want to go 12 speed, I think you should also go electric, electric derailleurs are a lot more accurate and cope better with closely packed sprockets.


bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 10:00:48 am »
My mate was one of the first to get the SRAM electronic 12s gubbins owing to her being a racing cyclist on a sponsorship deal (i.e. she races crits and road; sharp gear changes are very important in crit racing, especially on uppy-downy circuits like Redbridge). She does like it. As S2L says I think electronic would be the way to go, fettling 12s sounds like a mare.

For general rando/touring/bimbling purposes I really don't see the attraction. Closer fettling tolerances, a load of monetary cost (you could get some fantastic wheels for the cost of a transfer between 10/11s and 12s).... If you want to be cycling at the bleeding edge of performance then sure but for what I do, no thanks. To be honest I started rando'ing/touring with 8s and had no dramas at all.

Glad that 12s does exist though is with luck that will make 'lower end' gearing more affordable.
YACF touring/audax bargain basement:
https://bit.ly/2Xg8pRD


Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 10:03:27 am »
My view is that 11 speed was one cog too many for a traditional cable operated derailleur. 12 speed is likely to have even closer-packed sprockets, which means the tolerances of a cable derailleur are probably a bit too narrow for comfort. Typically all is well when components are new, the chain well lubricated, everything is clean, but 200 km after in winter and things are covered in grime and suddenly not so happy anymore.

If you want to go 12 speed, I think you should also go electric, electric derailleurs are a lot more accurate and cope better with closely packed sprockets.
Yes, I think I completely agree with this.

When I ran 3x8 it would cope with incredible amounts of skog.

2x10 is absolutely struggling with a bit of dirt on the cables.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 10:07:32 am »
inevitably as n increases the benefits of n+1 are subject to the law of diminishing returns.

Unless you decide you can ditch the FD.  However the FD is -after the admittedly sometimes awkward process of selection-  one of the most long-lived and trouble-free components on many bikes.

When I was a callow yoof I was quite keen on having more sprockets, because 'more is always better',  right?  But having gone from 5s to 6s to 7s in short order ( was using SunTour New Winner 7s freewheels as soon as I could buy them, i.e. in about 1980) I have taken the view that seven is enough for most purposes. 

Of course I have had bikes with any number of gears since then, but only 'by accident' as it were.  However left to my own devices I've usually chosen a less dished rear wheel with a shorter cassette on it, rather than further embrace the 'more is better' philosophy.

For example I've used 11s cassettes (usually less the 11T sprocket, which is as near to useless as I can imagine).  But I certainly wouldn't have bothered if it had required new hubs etc. I think the chances of me ever buying a set of XD or microspline hubs are vanishingly small, so I shall no longer be even a bit-part player in the n+1 game....

cheers

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2020, 10:16:08 am »
Like Bludger says, it depends what you're doing.  For bimbling about, a 2*5 friction shift would be fine if they made it anymore.  For hitting the right gear out of a hairpin in a crit, no way.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2020, 10:21:48 am »
re cable shifting and crud tolerance;

except for 4700 series, shimano 2x10 uses the same RD shift ratio as 6,7,8,9s systems. When you are pulling just 2 point something mm of cable per click, it ain't much.  Between that and underbartape cables it is an inherently finicky system.  2x11 uses a different shift ratio and is far less demanding in terms of cable condition.

With the correct shift ratio, I don't see any reason why  a 12s (or higher) system can't be shifted via cable.

The other side to the coin is the inherent nature of the chain and sprockets. It doesn't matter how the shifting is done if the chain and sprockets don't tolerate average road conditions. 

Not everyone knows this but as well as using different shift ratios etc shimano MTB systems often use a slightly different sprocket pitch and slightly different chains etc. The reason is that they are required to have more mud clearance. You get that mud clearance and more  'for free' if you use (say) an 11s chain in a 10s cassette.   

If you are commuting or training and don't need all those gears (and/or can't be arsed to clean them) then it makes sense to use fewer sprockets.  8s yes, but if you use a 6s system it probably won't need fiddling with from one year to the next.

I need hardly point out that a 2x6 system can offer the same ratios as a 1 x12, do I....? 

cheers

LMT

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2020, 10:41:46 am »
In principle, who would not want more gears. In reality it's meh, an opportunity to flog to the consumer something which they don't really need imo. A fool and their money though... ;D

The spread of gears that you have listed I would expect the bottom five or six gears to have only a one sprocket difference otherwise you are running the same spread as you would an 11sp.

10 or 9 speed cover my needs, but i have a selection of cassettes to swap around and it's a (small) faff few times a year. 12 sp would save that faff. campag does 11-34 with 11-12-13-14-15-16-17-19-22-25-29-34, but i'd find it too tight in the middle requiring double shifts (having ridden other straight through cassettes).

If you dont like double shifts then stick what you are running at the moment.

And if I'm reading the above right for the sake of a 10 minute job with a chain whip and cassette tool you want to swap out a whole drive train?

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2020, 10:50:12 am »
What is the difference: the 12T cog?  Hardly a revolutionary change! 

i find i use 12t as well as 11t quite often (downhills, fast groups, occasional sprint) so i wouldn't want to lose that. Adventure cycling is very niche with it's gearing
and setups, yet i think 46/30 with 11-34 would work just fine.

When I ran 3x8 it would cope with incredible amounts of skog.
2x10 is absolutely struggling with a bit of dirt on the cables.

my drivetrains are clean and shiny most of the time (cleaned after every longer ride) and shift fine, no issues whatsoever. i avoid riding in skoggy conditions, either train indoors or ride single speed which is easy to wash/dry.

inevitably as n increases the benefits of n+1 are subject to the law of diminishing returns.

the main appeal for me is having one cassette that is compatible with 99% of cycling that i do. many different setups can work ok(ish) and i've ridden all sorts over the years.

LMT

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #19 on: February 21, 2020, 10:55:50 am »
re cable shifting and crud tolerance;

except for 4700 series, shimano 2x10 uses the same RD shift ratio as 6,7,8,9s systems. When you are pulling just 2 point something mm of cable per click, it ain't much.  Between that and underbartape cables it is an inherently finicky system.  2x11 uses a different shift ratio and is far less demanding in terms of cable condition.

With the correct shift ratio, I don't see any reason why  a 12s (or higher) system can't be shifted via cable.

The other side to the coin is the inherent nature of the chain and sprockets. It doesn't matter how the shifting is done if the chain and sprockets don't tolerate average road conditions. 

Not everyone knows this but as well as using different shift ratios etc shimano MTB systems often use a slightly different sprocket pitch and slightly different chains etc. The reason is that they are required to have more mud clearance. You get that mud clearance and more  'for free' if you use (say) an 11s chain in a 10s cassette.   

If you are commuting or training and don't need all those gears (and/or can't be arsed to clean them) then it makes sense to use fewer sprockets.  8s yes, but if you use a 6s system it probably won't need fiddling with from one year to the next.

I need hardly point out that a 2x6 system can offer the same ratios as a 1 x12, do I....? 

cheers

ETAP  :thumbsup:

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #20 on: February 21, 2020, 11:03:45 am »
If you dont like double shifts then stick what you are running at the moment.

And if I'm reading the above right for the sake of a 10 minute job with a chain whip and cassette tool you want to swap out a whole drive train?

the cassettes i'm running now have a perfect progression in the top and middle gears (that's why run them), but they lack bottom gear sprockets. swapping the cassettes out is not a major hassle, but 10mins usually turn into half an hour or more (with the testing outside).

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2020, 11:15:25 am »
Currently 11 speed is available at every price point in pretty much every conceivable format, and you can get secondhand Di2 setups (6870) for buttons. 12 speed might get there eventually, but it’s probably 5-10 years from now.

With the correct shift ratio, I don't see any reason why  a 12s (or higher) system can't be shifted via cable

The higher sprocket cassettes have less white space between the gears to hide the lack of repeatability of cable systems indexed at the shifter. Increasing the shift ratio doesn’t really negate that.

Cable systems indexed at the derailleur might work, but no one makes one. Electronic is essentially the same thing.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2020, 11:29:21 am »
I usually find that when I need different gear ratios, I could do with different tyres and possibly wheels too.   So spare wheels (with different cassettes fitted) make quite a lot of sense for this reason alone, leave alone many of the others.

I'd also note that if you choose  a chainset where you have not already fitted the smallest inside ring possible, a quick way of getting lower gears is to swap the inner chainring as needed.  This usually works just fine with 2x10 or 2x11 systems, not least because there is a large overlap between the gear ranges offered by the inner and outer chainrings whatever you do.

For many years I had a light touring/day ride oriented road bike and I fitted that with a triple chainset. Actually I fitted it with a tripleiser chainring which added about 100g, but gave me all the gears I wanted for normal rides as well as a set of low ratios for climbs. Desperately unfashionable now of course....

Using modern equipment this also isn't a straightforward OTP option, but you can use a ST-4703 LH shifter which is a good match for most of the current 11s RH shifters, and whatever chainset that floats your boat and will accept three chainrings.  In fact using an 11s 11-28 or 11-30  cassette you will get a better gear progression than any other on the two big rings and still have low gears for climbing.  Unless you go silly with chainring sizes it will all work nicely with a variety of RDs.   What's not to like?

A comparison of 2x12 34-50/11-32  with 3x11 30-40-50/11-28 here

http://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=DERS&KB=34,50&RZ=11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,22,25,28,32&UF=2150&TF=90&SL=2.6&UN=MPH&DV=gearInches&GR2=DERS&KB2=30,40,50&RZ2=11,12,13,14,15,16,17,19,22,25,28&UF2=2150

cheers

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2020, 11:41:16 am »
Currently 11 speed is available at every price point in pretty much every conceivable format, and you can get secondhand Di2 setups (6870) for buttons. 12 speed might get there eventually, but it’s probably 5-10 years from now.

With the correct shift ratio, I don't see any reason why  a 12s (or higher) system can't be shifted via cable

The higher sprocket cassettes have less white space between the gears to hide the lack of repeatability of cable systems indexed at the shifter. Increasing the shift ratio doesn’t really negate that.


yebbut the cable errors are essentially pro-rata with the cable pull, so everything stays in proportion.  There are mechanical errors that creep in anyway, but these also creep in on electronic derailleurs too; they also wear out, get bent, clagged up, broken etc etc . I usually find that by the time my boring old shifters/cables need attention through neglect or whatever, most of the rest of the bike is utterly borked too.

It'll be interesting to see if this arrangement finds favour or not;

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0293/0209/5971/files/034-035_MBAa20_1.pdf?127

which is either the best or the worst of both worlds depending on how you look at it.

I can think of one big practical advantage, which is that if you regularly trash RDs, you can replace them for cheap, with almost anything which has the right capacity regardless of who makes it. This beats the hell out of struggling to find the (if not now soon to be obsolete and frighteningly expensive) Di2 mech or whatever.

cheers

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2020, 12:15:43 pm »
For many years I had a light touring/day ride oriented road bike and I fitted that with a triple chainset. Actually I fitted it with a tripleiser chainring which added about 100g, but gave me all the gears I wanted for normal rides as well as a set of low ratios for climbs. Desperately unfashionable now of course....

not much wrong with a triple, i've done many rides on a 10sp triple (pbp and tcr among them), now in my spares box. with 12sp becoming available i find a triple setup superfluous (besides that it's "uncool" - but i care less about that).

Quote
Using modern equipment this also isn't a straightforward OTP option, but you can use a ST-4703 LH shifter which is a good match for most of the current 11s RH shifters, and whatever chainset that floats your boat and will accept three chainrings.  In fact using an 11s 11-28 or 11-30  cassette you will get a better gear progression than any other on the two big rings and still have low gears for climbing.  Unless you go silly with chainring sizes it will all work nicely with a variety of RDs.   What's not to like?

it's a bit like wearing a brown shoe on the left foot and black one on the right.