Author Topic: (2x) 12sp road gearing  (Read 1992 times)

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2020, 10:27:29 am »
(my late night musings)

having mainly ridden on 10 and 9 speed gears i've never felt the need to move to 11sp  so far.

however, looking at the 11-34* 12sp cassette it suddenly seems like a versatile and attractive one-size-fits-all solution for a road bike, with small gaps and wide range.

for speed oriented riders it would work great with 52/36 chainset, from racing on the flat roads to riding in the mountains.

for more relaxed riders 46/30 would provide all the range and gears they need, in fact this setup would suit 90% of all cyclists both for road and gravel riding.

a new dura ace 12sp groupset should be released this year, but i'm looking forward to this system at 105/ultegra/(grx) levels and made for the regular hyperglide freehubs (i don't want to see micro spline appearing on road groupsets and no silly 10t sprocket either, please).

does anyone else think 12sp is a good idea?


*11-12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-28-31-34 looks like the optimal spread, but so far available only from far-eastern no name outfits..

For me there are too many sprockets. I would like the 11-34 range but my choice would go 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-34, or possibly swap the 11t for a 12t. Even with my 11-30 8sp I find I frequently jump down two cogs at a time, although I generally go back up one at a time (unless I going up a mountain when going down the other side can mean going from bottom straight to top).

I did try a 46-30 ring set-up for a while. I didn't get on with it and ended up putting a 34t ring in between the other two. I now have 46-34-28 on that bike with indexed dt shifters which I find very nice. (Mind I have a second bike with the same 11-30 cassette, still a triple, but friction dt shifters and that works pretty well as well. I used to not like 8sp friction bar-ends but I have since changed my opinions on friction. Must try 9 and 10 some day on friction, see if I can still count to ten). No shifters on the brake levers, arthritis in the thumbs makes it too uncomfortable.

I run bar ends on friction on 3 x 9 and 10 speed and it's a delight. Easy shifts, usually spot on first time due to muscle memory. Plus you clearly move the lever much less than you would on a brifter lever. Got to be better on long rides. I get a real connection to the shifts rather than whack a lever and let it decide the shift. Plus no faffing about with getting cable tension perfect, just clamp it near enough and it'll work very nicely indeed  thanks.

Plus I've banged a 10 speed wheel in (to see if compatible) when everything else is 9 speed and it all works just fine when in friction mode.
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #51 on: February 23, 2020, 10:59:41 am »
A recent Bike Quarterly blog argued that cable based indexing had reached its  technical limits. Jan suggested the future was electric or back to  friction.

Shimano has patented a gearbox.

If they have done that, it is probably on the way. Electric gearbox. Brucey will implode.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #52 on: February 23, 2020, 11:16:15 am »
We had gearboxes or automatic transition in the early 80s...
Not heard of since.

Sent from my Swift 2 using Tapatalk


Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2020, 11:16:44 am »
(my late night musings)

having mainly ridden on 10 and 9 speed gears i've never felt the need to move to 11sp  so far.

however, looking at the 11-34* 12sp cassette it suddenly seems like a versatile and attractive one-size-fits-all solution for a road bike, with small gaps and wide range.

for speed oriented riders it would work great with 52/36 chainset, from racing on the flat roads to riding in the mountains.

for more relaxed riders 46/30 would provide all the range and gears they need, in fact this setup would suit 90% of all cyclists both for road and gravel riding.

a new dura ace 12sp groupset should be released this year, but i'm looking forward to this system at 105/ultegra/(grx) levels and made for the regular hyperglide freehubs (i don't want to see micro spline appearing on road groupsets and no silly 10t sprocket either, please).

does anyone else think 12sp is a good idea?


*11-12-13-15-17-19-21-23-25-28-31-34 looks like the optimal spread, but so far available only from far-eastern no name outfits..

For me there are too many sprockets. I would like the 11-34 range but my choice would go 11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-34, or possibly swap the 11t for a 12t. Even with my 11-30 8sp I find I frequently jump down two cogs at a time, although I generally go back up one at a time (unless I going up a mountain when going down the other side can mean going from bottom straight to top).

I did try a 46-30 ring set-up for a while. I didn't get on with it and ended up putting a 34t ring in between the other two. I now have 46-34-28 on that bike with indexed dt shifters which I find very nice. (Mind I have a second bike with the same 11-30 cassette, still a triple, but friction dt shifters and that works pretty well as well. I used to not like 8sp friction bar-ends but I have since changed my opinions on friction. Must try 9 and 10 some day on friction, see if I can still count to ten). No shifters on the brake levers, arthritis in the thumbs makes it too uncomfortable.

I run bar ends on friction on 3 x 9 and 10 speed and it's a delight. Easy shifts, usually spot on first time due to muscle memory. Plus you clearly move the lever much less than you would on a brifter lever. Got to be better on long rides. I get a real connection to the shifts rather than whack a lever and let it decide the shift. Plus no faffing about with getting cable tension perfect, just clamp it near enough and it'll work very nicely indeed  thanks.

Plus I've banged a 10 speed wheel in (to see if compatible) when everything else is 9 speed and it all works just fine when in friction mode.
And me too.

Sent from my Swift 2 using Tapatalk


Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2020, 11:33:12 am »
We had gearboxes or automatic transition in the early 80s...
Not heard of since.

Sent from my Swift 2 using Tapatalk

We had electronic shifting in the early 90s.
(Mavic Zapp)

Not heard of since...

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #55 on: February 23, 2020, 11:48:53 am »
A recent Bike Quarterly blog argued...

i don't take their blog seriously, it's full of bogus statements and stories spun to sell their products (which are ok and cater a certain type of rider).

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #56 on: February 23, 2020, 12:04:08 pm »
Shimano has patented a gearbox.

If they have done that, it is probably on the way. Electric gearbox. Brucey will implode.

it will be interesting to see how efficient it is (if it goes to production). a chain going around multiple small cogs never feels great.

electronic gears have some way to go in terms of reliability; they should never fail and if they do there should be a backup system in place to keep the bike rideable. the range should be longer too.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #57 on: February 23, 2020, 12:14:13 pm »
A recent Bike Quarterly blog argued...

i don't take their blog seriously, it's full of bogus statements and stories spun to sell their products (which are ok and cater a certain type of rider).

Yep, although I wouldn't say bogus, more misleading usually by omission.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #58 on: February 23, 2020, 02:39:54 pm »
Shimano has patented a gearbox.

If they have done that, it is probably on the way. Electric gearbox. Brucey will implode.

it will be interesting to see how efficient it is (if it goes to production). a chain going around multiple small cogs never feels great.

electronic gears have some way to go in terms of reliability; they should never fail and if they do there should be a backup system in place to keep the bike rideable. the range should be longer too.

I've got a dismantled Shimano DI2 Internal battery here.
There's 2 570mah Li-Ion batteries in there, with a feed off 1 battery for 3.6v and off both for 7.2v
Shimano have rated the overall pack at 500mah

The reason the pack is in bits is because somewhere between the external contact and the outlet wires off the board it's gone wonky there is evidence that just like with unwaxoiled Japanese cars or anything Italian, keeping the bike in a cold garage on the east coast of Scotland isn't a great idea...

Shimano could have used considerably longer life cells than 500mah!
A clutch on the motor/solenoid to allow manual positioning would be handy, but potentially prone to issues.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #59 on: February 23, 2020, 03:22:15 pm »


all it needs now is an electric gearbox and it'll be *perfect*

cheers

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2020, 04:15:44 pm »

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2020, 11:35:23 pm »


all it needs now is an electric gearbox and it'll be *perfect*

cheers

Nah; lacks string! No worthwhile invention can exist without string ;D
I did wonder if the transmission might be string but no, I can't see a knot.

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2020, 11:53:50 pm »
 There have been lots of gearboxes for bicycles over the last century and more. The last one I can recall was the Pinion box. It seemed like a nice idea but very pricy (there was another one that was shown at the Roc d'Azur four or five years ago but it seems to have disappeared). i would guess that putting electric shifting on such boxes involves more powerful motors than is needed on a dérailleur.
Dérailleur gearing systems have a major weakness, which is that they can't change gear at a standstill. Electronic shifting does nothing to overcome this (as far as I can see). While it may have relatively little advantage for the racing community I am sure that sooner or later standstill gearchanging  will become a major element in selling to the grand public (with systems a bit more elaborate than the current crop of IGHs)

Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2020, 06:44:00 am »
I  thought this was a forum for a " certain type of rider".


zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: (2x) 12sp road gearing
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2020, 06:25:57 pm »
I  thought this was a forum for a " certain type of rider".

this is a forum for all types of riders and anyone interested in cycling.