Author Topic: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot  (Read 2174 times)

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2020, 05:42:50 pm »
None of my Edges have a 'Riding Too Slowly' beep.
Is it perhaps some configurable option if you are using a 'virtual partner' and they pass you?
I never use that feature, it's switched off.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2020, 06:47:13 am »
None of my Edges have a 'Riding Too Slowly' beep.
Is it perhaps some configurable option if you are using a 'virtual partner' and they pass you?
I never use that feature, it's switched off.
Is that a subtle form of boasting?

Although I have not heard it either so a very weak boast!

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2020, 07:28:35 am »
None of my Edges have a 'Riding Too Slowly' beep.

I think it might be auto-pause coming on and off when the speed dips below a threshold. It could also be caused if the Garmin is connected to a dynamo for charging, where again the unit can beep when the speed drops below the threshold to maintain the charging.

Thankfully the Wahoo Bolt doesn't have this 'feature'.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2020, 11:59:46 am »
I think it might be auto-pause coming on and off when the speed dips below a threshold.

That's the one!  Couldn't remember the name for it.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2020, 12:01:09 pm »
I think it might be auto-pause coming on and off when the speed dips below a threshold.

That's the one!  Couldn't remember the name for it.

Wahoo has this, but you have to be essentially stopped. I've had it tracking just fine at 2kph. It helps to have a speed sensor on the wheel.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #30 on: March 03, 2020, 12:06:27 pm »
Whereas the outdoor models only 'pause' if you turn the GPS reception off.  Much better for audax, touring and other real-world riding, as the clock's always running and you can't forget to start them.  It's a pain for racing, as while you can hit 'yes' on the reset menu almost as easily as pressing the start button on an Edge, there's no simple way to stop recording as you cross the finish line, and no concept of laps whatsoever.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2020, 12:09:56 pm »
I think it might be auto-pause coming on and off when the speed dips below a threshold.

That's the one!  Couldn't remember the name for it.
On the Touring (So I assume on other Edge models) you can chose when that happens:  when stopped - never - custom speed.
I've also turned all the beeps off, which you can do whatever functions you 're using.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2020, 12:49:05 pm »
Whereas the outdoor models only 'pause' if you turn the GPS reception off.  Much better for audax, touring and other real-world riding, as the clock's always running and you can't forget to start them.  It's a pain for racing, as while you can hit 'yes' on the reset menu almost as easily as pressing the start button on an Edge, there's no simple way to stop recording as you cross the finish line, and no concept of laps whatsoever.

So that's how I stop it drawing a dirty great straight line and adding 20kms to the track if I go for a walk in the woods. This could be very useful to know!! Thanks Kim, I feel I might have made a quantum leap forward!!
What could be more alarming is the way variations in gps reception can result in a track of 500m while the unit is stationary (it seems to be going round in tiny circles -and I am assuming that it's the gps reception that does it; now I'm a bit more careful about turning it off!)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2020, 12:58:15 pm »
On an eTrex 30, turning the GPS off is achieved by going to the constellation display and selecting "Demo mode" from the menu.  Clear as mud.

And yes, GPS noise will appear in the tracklog, unless the filtering (log interval settings) is very aggressive.  It's always a trade-off between noise and missed detail, and there is no general case right answer.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Blodwyn Pig

  • what a nice chap
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2020, 01:40:07 pm »
 ??? :facepalm:

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2020, 01:43:02 pm »
The Etrex 30 (and other models of Etrex) also have an annoying 'feature' when you are travelling slowly if dynamo powered. It decides the input feed isn't strong enough so it asks you if you want battery mode and if you haven't said yes it turns off after 30 seconds. You look down five miles later to notice it's been turned off since that steep hill you have only just recovered from
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2020, 01:50:22 pm »
??? :facepalm:

Sampling theory is beyond the scope of this thread, but a GPS receiver can never be accurate at measuring distance travelled, for the same basic reason that you can never accurately measure the amount of climbing between point A and point B.  (Consider you have a magic perfectly accurate elevation-measuring device and a 1-metre ruler.  Go and measure your hill at 1-metre intervals, and add up all the changes in elevation.  Now try it again with a half-metre ruler.  Which is the correct result?)

GPS brings these problems into focus, because you have fundamental system limitations (accuracy of a few metres, with random drift over time), combined with the sampling algorithm applied by your logging device (over which you may have some degree of control).  If you want to map that curve in the road accurately, you turn up the logging interval, and get a better fit for the curve.  Then you stop moving and record hundreds of metres of small movements due to drift in the GPS position.  Alternatively, you filter out the small movements and do a better job of detecting stoppedness, but find the track is cutting corners...

(I'm handwaving a bit, but that's the general principle.)

Just as applicable to traditional cycle computers (how much did your wheel wobble?) and drawing lines on paper maps (we're back to rulers again), but you tend not to be aware of those as a sampling problem.  Nevertheless, it's what happens when you try to turn the real world into numbers.

The practical answer is you can happily not think about this stuff and pretend your GPS is accurate, just like you did with your bike computer.  But you have to not get upset when you look at the track and see it going off piste, cutting corners or a spider-scribble at the points you stopped.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2020, 01:52:55 pm »
The Etrex 30 (and other models of Etrex) also have an annoying 'feature' when you are travelling slowly if dynamo powered. It decides the input feed isn't strong enough so it asks you if you want battery mode and if you haven't said yes it turns off after 30 seconds. You look down five miles later to notice it's been turned off since that steep hill you have only just recovered from

This was one of the 'simplifications' in the 10/20/30 series.  The HCx let you configure the loss-of-external-power behaviour in a menu somewhere.

Fortunately, it's an eTrex, so you probably don't need to power it from a dynamo in the first place.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2020, 01:59:58 pm »
The Etrex 30 (and other models of Etrex) also have an annoying 'feature' when you are travelling slowly if dynamo powered. It decides the input feed isn't strong enough so it asks you if you want battery mode and if you haven't said yes it turns off after 30 seconds. You look down five miles later to notice it's been turned off since that steep hill you have only just recovered from

This was one of the 'simplifications' in the 10/20/30 series.  The HCx let you configure the loss-of-external-power behaviour in a menu somewhere.

Fortunately, it's an eTrex, so you probably don't need to power it from a dynamo in the first place.

That is true. I don't tend to, but have done on tour when I didn't carry enough batteries
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2020, 05:20:02 pm »
I’d be wary of trying to power GPS from USB whilst riding. I broke the USB socket on my Etrex 20 back in 2016 doing just that . I just run off AA now and take spares. You get 600km out of one pair, so no need to power off USB really.
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2020, 06:28:28 pm »
I’d be wary of trying to power GPS from USB whilst riding. I broke the USB socket on my Etrex 20 back in 2016 doing just that . I just run off AA now and take spares. You get 600km out of one pair, so no need to power off USB really.
I power my edge through the usb cable permanently - the cable is hot melt glued in !


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2020, 07:33:08 pm »
??? :facepalm:
I'm completely with you.  Ask what seems on the face of it a straightforward question and it isn't long before the thread derails into the most esoteric detail.
Rust never sleeps

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #42 on: March 03, 2020, 07:48:03 pm »
??? :facepalm:
I'm completely with you.  Ask what seems on the face of it a straightforward question and it isn't long before the thread derails into the most esoteric detail.

It's a complicated subject with a need for more than one highlighter pen, and any straightforward answer will be dangerously inadequate.  I've been trying to keep things general, with a minimum of technology specific evangelism.  That precludes nice easy answers like "Go and buy a Garmin Edge 1000, it's the best GPS receiver for cycling".

But it's also the nature of threads to drift (or, since this one is still mostly on topic - discussion of the inevitability of random noise in tracklogs or the irritating power-down habits of the later eTrexen are quite specific, but might still be relevant to a purchase decision - get bogged down in details).  Half the problem is the lack of proper threading, but it's mostly the tendency of humans not to want to sit in silence once a question has been answered.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #43 on: March 03, 2020, 10:05:24 pm »
gps's do take a bit of time to figure out (few hours?), more for someone who considers themselves an "idiot". the good news it's less complicated than rocket science - so there's hope.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2020, 05:33:31 pm »
gps's do take a bit of time to figure out (few hours?), more for someone who considers themselves an "idiot". the good news it's less complicated than rocket science - so there's hope.

There's optimism!! Few months more like for the non-technocrat. Total immersion (for the user in the use of the gps) helps (before it becomes total immersion by the user of the gps in a vat of boiling oil!). This is why you really need to have a specific need for a gps. Otherwise it is too easy to lose interest in the beast and go on riding your bike with a map and pencil (which has well served generations of cyclists), unless you are more interested in technical gadgetry than riding your bike (or building rockets?).

Devise des Shadock "Pas de solution sans problème" ("no solution without a problem"). It applies to gps too!

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2020, 12:17:31 am »
I've had a Garmin Oregon for some years. i still possess the old-style Etrex.

I used very few features of mine. I like to record tracks when I'm out walking and cycling, and every so often I put them on line somewhere.

I plot routes for rides using Bikehike, but save them as "tracks" on the Garmin, so that I simply have a "breadcrumb trail" for navigational purposes.

Like Kim, I'm a fan of OS maps, and have a large collection, but I now subscribe to OS and have access to their maps on my i-devices - as long as I have a signal. Having said that, recent paper map purchases have included a download so that the map in question is saved on my i-devices and I can access them without a signal.

For my limited uses, the Oregon is fine. It has never complained about me cycling slowly. It must be very patient. Either that, or it likes scenery and birdsong, just like me.
Eating's a serious business. Don't bollocks around wagging your tail.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2020, 01:09:52 pm »
The Oregons are touchscreen devices, which I personally consider a serious drawback in a cycling GPS.  With a button-driven device like the Etrex you can fiddle with the GPS (zoom level, for example) without taking your eyes off the road ahead.

I should also point out that much as I love an OS map, they're not actually very good for display on a GPS device, both because you can't see very much of one on a small screen (the Satmap is a relatively large device specifically to address this issue) and because they lack detail at the how-does-this-junction-work level.  Hence GPS devices tend to use vector maps, ...

All that plus OS maps don't rotate very well.  The (optional) ability of GPS map displays to rotate as you turn is despised by some but loved by others.  I think it is one of a GPS's best party tricks (along with 'distance to next').  Vector maps inevitably disappoint anyone who has been wedded to OS maps all their life (like we all have) but they are actually very powerful accurate and detailed in their own way.

I don't think anyone has mentioned that in the context of a long tour away from home - 2 or more weeks - a GPS is much smaller and lighter than carting a load of paper maps around.  And although people will object and say that a GPS can fail, my solution to that is to carry a spare one - still a far more compact touring solution.  (Actually in my experience GPSs are very reliable, for an electronic device.)  Although we usually plan tours in meticulous detail, we have also gone the other way and toured across France ad hoc and paperless, just programming the next day's route into the Etrex the evening before, sitting outside a bar - it's perfectly doable and fun if you enjoy winging it.  For the bigger picture and general evening browsing we have the IGN maps on a big-screen phone - but that is evening use only, we wouldn't use it to navigate.

Oh and by the way ...



That is a very unrepresentative example of what navigating on a cycle GPS looks like, for all sorts of reasons.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2020, 01:15:13 pm »
The Oregons are touchscreen devices, which I personally consider a serious drawback in a cycling GPS.  With a button-driven device like the Etrex you can fiddle with the GPS (zoom level, for example) without taking your eyes off the road ahead.

The little joystick thing on the eTrex is about as annoying as a touchscreen in normal use (the 'press down' can be a bit hit-and-miss, especially on a moving bike), but it's much more glove-friendly.

That said, when in motion, I rarely need more than the zoom controls or a random nudge of the joystick to wake the backlight up.  Depends how much you like to fiddle, I suppose.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2020, 01:28:59 pm »
The Oregons are touchscreen devices, which I personally consider a serious drawback in a cycling GPS.  With a button-driven device like the Etrex you can fiddle with the GPS (zoom level, for example) without taking your eyes off the road ahead.

More over if you have big thick winter gloves on, touch screens can be a bitch.

Quote
All that plus OS maps don't rotate very well.  The (optional) ability of GPS map displays to rotate as you turn is despised by some but loved by others.  I think it is one of a GPS's best party tricks (along with 'distance to next').  Vector maps inevitably disappoint anyone who has been wedded to OS maps all their life (like we all have) but they are actually very powerful accurate and detailed in their own way.

I think something here worth mentioning is the way some people when they read a map will pick the map up, and rotate it round so that its alignment matches the place they are in. If a woman does this, the nearest man will usually tell them they have the map upside down and then take the map off them. When people do this to me I like to beat them repeatedly with my orienteering trophies...

OS Maps are a work of beautiful art, I love them, and have a nice collection, even if I don't have much direct use for them these days. In the event of a discrepancy between reality and the OS map, the OS map is of course the one in the right. Travelling far and wide by bike often makes me long for OS to map outside of the British isles...

Quote
I don't think anyone has mentioned that in the context of a long tour away from home - 2 or more weeks - a GPS is much smaller and lighter than carting a load of paper maps around.  And although people will object and say that a GPS can fail, my solution to that is to carry a spare one - still a far more compact touring solution.  (Actually in my experience GPSs are very reliable, for an electronic device.)  Although we usually plan tours in meticulous detail, we have also gone the other way and toured across France ad hoc and paperless, just programming the next day's route into the Etrex the evening before, sitting outside a bar - it's perfectly doable and fun if you enjoy winging it.  For the bigger picture and general evening browsing we have the IGN maps on a big-screen phone - but that is evening use only, we wouldn't use it to navigate.

I have OSMAnd offline maps on my phone as the ultimate backup, I also have a backup wahoo in the saddle bag. On tours, I do like to carry a very large scale paper map. My trip to Hell I carried a map of all of Scandinavia. It can be useful for laying out on a table in a hostel and get a good idea of what's ahead, without having to keep scrolling on even the relatively large screen of my phone. I didn't carry paper maps on the TCR, but my ultimate backup option was to cycle to the nearest gas station and buy a paper map.

Quote

Oh and by the way ...

That is a very unrepresentative example of what navigating on a cycle GPS looks like, for all sorts of reasons.

Agreed.

The little joystick thing on the eTrex is about as annoying as a touchscreen in normal use (the 'press down' can be a bit hit-and-miss, especially on a moving bike), but it's much more glove-friendly.

That said, when in motion, I rarely need more than the zoom controls or a random nudge of the joystick to wake the backlight up.  Depends how much you like to fiddle, I suppose.

Zoom, change route gpx, switch screens to see more data, etc...

I like the buttons on the wahoo, I can operate them all with my big thick buffalo mitts, in the rain. It's a bit fun when the rain freezes on the device, but it can work. I don't understand how people think touchscreens are a good idea for devices you operate in a moving state... That includes the fuck off big touch screens in modern cars, looking at you Elon!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2020, 01:36:05 pm »
I like the buttons on the wahoo, I can operate them all with my big thick buffalo mitts, in the rain. It's a bit fun when the rain freezes on the device, but it can work. I don't understand how people think touchscreens are a good idea for devices you operate in a moving state... That includes the fuck off big touch screens in modern cars, looking at you Elon!

Agreed.

I haven't fondled one, but I'm sure Elon's touchscreens are Mega-Global Fruit Corporation quality, unlike the poorly calibrated resistive rubbish you get in lesser makes of automobile.

(Of course, a resistive touchscreen makes sense if it's going to be rained on.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...