Author Topic: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot  (Read 2160 times)

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2020, 01:42:00 pm »
Agreed about the annoying nature of touch screens in the rain. I put it on battery-saving mode so that the screen goes blank when it's raining - and, quite often, when it's not. I do think the Oregon is more electron-hungry than the old Etrex, which isn't surprising because it has a larger screen.
Eating's a serious business. Don't bollocks around wagging your tail.

Blodwyn Pig

  • what a nice chap
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2020, 01:48:27 pm »
 ::-)   Oh dear...............................goes off to sit in the corner, with a tall pointy hat , with 'D' on it   :-[

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2020, 02:36:00 pm »
Quote
All that plus OS maps don't rotate very well.  The (optional) ability of GPS map displays to rotate as you turn is despised by some but loved by others.  I think it is one of a GPS's best party tricks (along with 'distance to next').  Vector maps inevitably disappoint anyone who has been wedded to OS maps all their life (like we all have) but they are actually very powerful accurate and detailed in their own way.

I think something here worth mentioning is the way some people when they read a map will pick the map up, and rotate it round so that its alignment matches the place they are in. If a woman does this, the nearest man will usually tell them they have the map upside down and then take the map off them. When people do this to me I like to beat them repeatedly with my orienteering trophies...
This is one of the principles of Legible City. In that context, it works very well and makes me wonder why everywhere doesn't do it.
https://www.bristollegiblecity.info/portfolio-items/on-street-signage-system/

In GPS terms, I started off having my map always north up and relying on the little compass arrow, the sun or general memory to orient it in my brain. For the past couple of years I've been using it heads up. Helps sort out those upside down left and rights. However, I'm not sure this would work well at walking speed – the directionality tends to flip itself through 180 degrees when stationary, which happens a bit more when walking.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2020, 03:26:12 pm »


Oh and by the way ...



That is a very unrepresentative example of what navigating on a cycle GPS looks like, for all sorts of reasons.

Didn’t say it represented all GPS but that is a direct screen print done on my etrex. That’s how it looks for me on my Garmin etrex using OSM mapping and in automotive display mode. This display mode is critical for the 3D head up type look. I’ve found it far better (and very different) than the other map display modes.
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2020, 03:41:05 pm »
Quote
All that plus OS maps don't rotate very well.  The (optional) ability of GPS map displays to rotate as you turn is despised by some but loved by others.  I think it is one of a GPS's best party tricks (along with 'distance to next').  Vector maps inevitably disappoint anyone who has been wedded to OS maps all their life (like we all have) but they are actually very powerful accurate and detailed in their own way.

I think something here worth mentioning is the way some people when they read a map will pick the map up, and rotate it round so that its alignment matches the place they are in. If a woman does this, the nearest man will usually tell them they have the map upside down and then take the map off them. When people do this to me I like to beat them repeatedly with my orienteering trophies...
This is one of the principles of Legible City. In that context, it works very well and makes me wonder why everywhere doesn't do it.
https://www.bristollegiblecity.info/portfolio-items/on-street-signage-system/

In GPS terms, I started off having my map always north up and relying on the little compass arrow, the sun or general memory to orient it in my brain. For the past couple of years I've been using it heads up. Helps sort out those upside down left and rights. However, I'm not sure this would work well at walking speed – the directionality tends to flip itself through 180 degrees when stationary, which happens a bit more when walking.

If the GPS has a 3 axis compass built in, you don’t get this problem.
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2020, 04:57:06 pm »
That is a very unrepresentative example of what navigating on a cycle GPS looks like, for all sorts of reasons.
Didn’t say it represented all GPS but that is a direct screen print done on my etrex. That’s how it looks for me on my Garmin etrex using OSM mapping and in automotive display mode. This display mode is critical for the 3D head up type look. I’ve found it far better (and very different) than the other map display modes.

Not questioning your usage Phil but for anyone wanting to know what a GPS display looks like, that image is too big (your original), far too bright and colourful, doesn't properly illustrate navigating along the purple line, and there's probably not one cyclist in 10 who chooses to use that 3D-style display in preference to a flat map.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #56 on: March 05, 2020, 05:24:36 pm »
In GPS terms, I started off having my map always north up and relying on the little compass arrow, the sun or general memory to orient it in my brain. For the past couple of years I've been using it heads up. Helps sort out those upside down left and rights. However, I'm not sure this would work well at walking speed – the directionality tends to flip itself through 180 degrees when stationary, which happens a bit more when walking.

I mildly prefer north up when I'm walking, if only because it stops the map swinging around unexpectedly due to the vagaries of GPS error or the magnetic compass being lead astray by metal, but direction-of-travel-up is a definite win at vehicle (including cycle) speeds.  It also makes more efficient use of a portrait aspect display - showing you more of where you're going.

OS maps are better with north up, because that's the way the text is permanently oriented.  (YMMV vis ability to rotate a map in your head vs read text upside-down.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #57 on: March 05, 2020, 05:24:53 pm »
That is a very unrepresentative example of what navigating on a cycle GPS looks like, for all sorts of reasons.
Didn’t say it represented all GPS but that is a direct screen print done on my etrex. That’s how it looks for me on my Garmin etrex using OSM mapping and in automotive display mode. This display mode is critical for the 3D head up type look. I’ve found it far better (and very different) than the other map display modes.

Not questioning your usage Phil but for anyone wanting to know what a GPS display looks like, that image is too big (your original), far too bright and colourful, doesn't properly illustrate navigating along the purple line, and there's probably not one cyclist in 10 who chooses to use that 3D-style display in preference to a flat map.

Actually that is what the purple line looks like in automotive mode. That’s why I have it in that mode. Agree looks different with sun on the screen but it’s pretty close at night time (though I have different colours for night time). The brightness and colours are exactly what the GPS is rendering they are not adjusted. But yes, I up sampled the number of pixels by 2  to post here

But anyway not sure OP is any the wiser as to what they want given the choices.
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #58 on: March 05, 2020, 05:31:32 pm »
Here’s un resampled shot of the display, taken with my iPad in low light. That how bright and colourful it is in reality in low light. At the moment I think only e ink displays would make a significant difference when direct sunset is hitting the screen. But on the recumbent the display sits vertical so perhaps I’m getting a better view than those who have the screen horizontal and getting all the sunlight reflected.

Tomorrow I’ll take another picture outside in brighter conditions (forecast to be sunny) for comparison

If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #59 on: March 05, 2020, 05:32:11 pm »
The Oregons are touchscreen devices, which I personally consider a serious drawback in a cycling GPS.  With a button-driven device like the Etrex you can fiddle with the GPS (zoom level, for example) without taking your eyes off the road ahead.

Bearing in mind that my endorsement for the Oregon as the best unit is only if your requirement is cross activity, it's worth mentioning your interpretation of the apparent drawback of the touchscreen aspect isn't correct.

The zoom example is not accurate because as a multi touch device, even if you don't like the on screen touch buttons, which are arranged usably. There are also two buttons which are user configurable, one to two actions, the other to three (short press, long press, hold) which would handle lap or whatever.

It isn't perfect as a cycling gps, but the touch screen doesn't really count (especially as it works with gloves)

Blodwyn Pig

  • what a nice chap
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #60 on: March 06, 2020, 07:38:13 am »
Ok, I've just discovered that I can use my old android phone , as gps does not need a sim. ( possible whoop whoop moment) what would be the best app to use. Can I use strava, map my ride, can I download audax routes,if some how will they be shown. Which one is best? Is this a waste of time? Can a phone app do what a ... garmin , wahoo etc do?

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #61 on: March 06, 2020, 07:58:15 am »
Ok, I've just discovered that I can use my old android phone , as gps does not need a sim. ( possible whoop whoop moment) what would be the best app to use. Can I use strava, map my ride, can I download audax routes,if some how will they be shown. Which one is best? Is this a waste of time? Can a phone app do what a ... garmin , wahoo etc do?


Good summary from Kim, on mobiles...

...
For example, a mobile phone will be brilliant at showing maps, but means you have to think about battery life[1] and probably waterproofing and how to attach it to the bike and so on.  It might not be ideal for logging because you can't rely on apps staying running in the background.

...

Some people only use phones, and have the waterproof mounts etc.  Pre-Etrex (few years ago), I tried Android with OsmAnd app navigation (can download and follow a gpx track), but in my hands - app crashed occasionally.  Strava app - for me crashed when I took photos / unreliable.  Ridewithgps do a 'handlebar' nav app, not really used it (can download offline mapping for gpx).  I had a simple silicone mount device to attach phone to bars.  (Placky bag for water resistance)

I still use a non-mounted mobile for shorter journeys;  logging only, with MyTracks.
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2020, 08:48:14 am »
I still think the first question for Blodwyn Pig is why. You mentioned Audax, and like andyoxon that's why I first got one. I've now had several, but I still don't think I'm an expert.

For Audaxes, as you probably know there's now usually a GPX file available from the organiser, or occasionally an enthusiastic fellow-participant. Since Audaxes specialise in twisting, turning routes using obscure back roads then, as others have said, following the box on your bars can be much easier than using a paper map, and more certain than relying on a route sheet when there may be several turnings all signed towards Littleton. Since you can choose the screen zoom, you decide between getting a very close view that gives a few hundred metres' warning of a turn, and a somewhat wider view that gives a pretty good sense that the next turn is more than a mile away. I prefer the former. A line on the map shows your route. Some versions of the file may give turn instructions, such as "go left arrows" that appear as you approach the junction, and/or beeps. You don't usually get the annoying voices that you hear from car sat-navs!

In this mode, you (or whoever set up the GPX) are in control of the routing decisions, and the box is just showing you where you are and where you planned to go next. That's not like a car sat-nav of course, which tends to take you where you want to go, but make the decisions on how you get there. This extends quite easily to your own rides, which you can plan in advance on any of a number of PC-based systems. Then you download a GPX and use it as above. I've occasionally used this for urban riding as well, going across London to suppliers, or to railway stations on the way to Audax events - I get Cyclestreets, which I trust much more than any GPS box, to plan me a route, sense check it, and then upload the GPX to the GPS.

But you absolutely can let the GPX behave more like a sat nav, and choose the route for you. This always comes with a frisson of excitement; just as car sat navs have got lorries stuck down narrow roads, so bike ones, as others have mentioned, may happily take your best road bike down steep, bumpy, muddy tracks that would challenge an MTB. One additional thing that a bike unit may understand, that still seems to perplex car ones, is the idea of going, instead of from A to B, from A to A. So, if I'm in an unfamiliar area, mine will set up a 30-mile circular route for me. To be honest, I never use mine like this; I love paper maps (or, now, electronic representations of paper maps), and would never dream of going anywhere without spending more time than the ride will take, just looking on the map at where I'm going and what's around. So, the idea of not knowing in advance where the thing is going to take me is anathema. But, having decided, I might record my plan on a PC-based tool, generate a GPX, and use it in the same way as above again.

Something I've developed into more recently is recording rides. With the whole social media thing has arisen the idea of sharing the rides you've done with others, either so that they can admire them, or so that they can benefit from your local knowledge when visiting your area. I'm fundamentally of the view that I'm too boring for anyone to care, so I don't share my rides, but two things have happened to me. One is the club starting an annual mileage competition. I'll never come near the top of it, but it's given me impetus to track my mileage, and try at least to beat 10 miles a day (average). The second is a heart bypass, and being encouraged to exercise. OK, I'm a cyclist, so I was never exactly inactive, but the upshot is wearing a heart monitor and an "exercise watch", and tracking what I've done more. All these things connect easily to GPS units - so, on my last Audax, I can see what happened to my heart in the hilly bits, and how it recovered in the cafe stops, and generally be sure that I'm neither over- nor underdoing it. (Anyone riding near me next time needn't worry; I'm no more likely than the next rider to keel over, but a certain amount of checking does no harm. Those doing serious training would want the same information for different reasons. I'm just trying to illustrate what you can do.)

And then that has extended into using the tracking for virtual racing ("Strava segments"). Since everyone's riding is being recorded, it's not difficult to figure out who has done the fastest ride ever up any given hill. All you need is set start and finish points. But I guess that's not your first thought for a use of these things. It's about my last (probably because I'd be more likely to be slowest ever).

And yes, once you've decided that you want to try these dark arts, then the whole issue of which product opens up. And using a phone is an increasing possibility. It used to be that the phone's battery wouldn't last a day ride. That's improving I think. It may be that just trying it on a phone, or buying a basic GPS second hand, or borrowing/asking about one from a friend, may be the best way in. It's like buying a bike really - you probably won't get your ideal one first time, because you won't know what your ideal one would be like anyway.

If none of these things interests you, you maybe don't need a GPS ;D

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2020, 11:48:58 pm »
In GPS terms, I started off having my map always north up and relying on the little compass arrow, the sun or general memory to orient it in my brain. For the past couple of years I've been using it heads up. Helps sort out those upside down left and rights. However, I'm not sure this would work well at walking speed – the directionality tends to flip itself through 180 degrees when stationary, which happens a bit more when walking.

I mildly prefer north up when I'm walking, if only because it stops the map swinging around unexpectedly due to the vagaries of GPS error or the magnetic compass being lead astray by metal, but direction-of-travel-up is a definite win at vehicle (including cycle) speeds.  It also makes more efficient use of a portrait aspect display - showing you more of where you're going.

OS maps are better with north up, because that's the way the text is permanently oriented.  (YMMV vis ability to rotate a map in your head vs read text upside-down.)

My brain is hard-wired to expect North to be Up. I can't deal with a GPS which has direction of travel up.
Eating's a serious business. Don't bollocks around wagging your tail.

Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2020, 09:38:30 am »
I think I must be one of a very tiny minority who use a Garmin Forerunner 230 watch on a bit of pipe lagging on my handlebars, rather than a cycling-specific GPS.  If I want to follow a specific route, I can upload one using the dwmap app on the watch - it lacks the details of any roads/paths off my route, but it's pretty serviceable.  The plus-side of it all is that it's a smartwatch in its own right; I went out yesterday afternoon while my youngest son was asleep; Mrs L sent me a text when he woke up, and it flashed up on my handlebars... (I was about a mile from home  ;D)

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: Is there an 'idiots guide' for an.....idiot
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2020, 12:07:14 pm »
Here’s un resampled shot of the display, taken with my iPad in low light.
...
Tomorrow I’ll take another picture outside in brighter conditions (forecast to be sunny) for comparison


This is an older-model Etrex in daylight.



This (Etrex Legend) is actually a brighter screen (without backlight) than the 30x, and the same dimensions.  I have both and the 30x screen is noticeably dimmer even than the 30 - though higher resolution and more colour depth.  Using a 30x, I have to switch the backlight on to view it in daylight, whereas the older models were usable without the backlight.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.