Author Topic: Don't commute it will hospitalise you  (Read 5904 times)

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2020, 04:40:29 pm »
I haven't read all the posts here but for my 2 pence we do need better infrastructure but we also need a cultural change and education. My colleagues daughter would be much better off cycling to work at one site she works out.

Would be as fast and able to lock bike at work rather then driving to park and ride. Colchester from the bits I've ridden is pretty damn good for cycling directly but separately from traffic if desired. She deems it too dangerous and thinks cycling is something done by hippies like me.

ian

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #76 on: April 01, 2020, 04:49:18 pm »
Ian , there is a strongly held belief within the London Cycling Campaign that if you build dutch style infra then , as if by magic, people  will cycle.

By magic no, they won't, but without infrastructure, they definitely won't.
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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #77 on: April 01, 2020, 04:59:14 pm »
Oh I confess  to being a bit provocative here . I was  trying to make the point that they are  a bit infra obsessed .

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #78 on: April 01, 2020, 05:13:59 pm »
The thing about dedicated infra, is that it opens possibilities for people in an obvious way. When there's a nice, sensible, lit cycle path that goes where you need to get to, cycling seems less like something that lycra louts do in the Tour de France, and more like what people like you do to get places. It invites possibilities, in a way that roads with cars on them don't.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #79 on: April 01, 2020, 05:14:25 pm »
Like most things if you polarise an organisation/individual into a single viewpoint then it's easy to find some fault with it. Increased infrastructure is only one part of the plan of most pro-cycling organisations.

More rigorous enforcement of existing laws would be high up on my list.
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ian

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #80 on: April 01, 2020, 05:35:19 pm »
It's multifactorial, of course. I think anyone should be able to cycle on any road (well, with the sensible exceptions) without fear of aggression and endangerment from other users. The reality though, as we know, is that there's close to no enforcement of the law. There seems little political appetite to tackle that.

That aside, fast, busy roads, are not pleasant places to cycle. There's a differential in speed, you're chomping on exhaust fumes, usually confined to the worse bit of the road by vehicles for whom a wide pass is the exception rather than the rule. I think I can see why people don't leap at the prospect.

As mentioned, I bought a bike after a long hiatus from cycling to get to the pool and back (a five-minute scoot), it was only the enticement of a traffic-free route that got to ride into central London. I know a fair number of Europeans who cycle in their home country but view even London cycling as the domain of the mad.

Being able to get from (a) to (b) without these challenges makes it possible. You probably wouldn't encourage walking by getting rid of the pavements and telling pedestrians they're better off walking down the side of the road.
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Kim

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #81 on: April 01, 2020, 07:57:43 pm »
Oh I confess  to being a bit provocative here . I was  trying to make the point that they are  a bit infra obsessed .

What else would you expect a local cycle campaigning group to be doing?  Ultimately, their primary reason to exist is to persuade local authorities to make things better for cycling, and (with the odd exception like funding sports schemes and cycle training) that's mostly about changes to the built environment.  Okay, that doesn't necessarily imply Dutch-style infra - it also covers things like sensible traffic light timings, provision of cycle parking or maintenance of leisure routes.

I know organisations like LCC and Pushbikes also do other grassroots activities to encourage individuals to cycle, but that's somewhat secondary.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #82 on: April 02, 2020, 11:53:13 am »
My concern is their  evangelical obsession with  Dutch infra.

 

Kim

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #83 on: April 02, 2020, 12:36:26 pm »
My concern is their  evangelical obsession with  Dutch infra.

Seems reasonable from an Overton Window perspective.  Make enough noise about Dutch infra and the engineers might eventually get the message about Magic Paint being a waste of time, or priority at junctions, or whatever.  (It's not like there's a shortage of taxi drivers, NIMBYs, misinformed blind people, etc to argue against it.)  This appears to have worked in Birmingham.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

vorsprung

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #84 on: April 02, 2020, 04:43:50 pm »
With the current situation several people have said the quieter roads have made for a better cycling experience

maybe well see more car free town centres in the future
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #85 on: April 02, 2020, 04:56:12 pm »
It would be truly lovely if we could come out of this with current levels of traffic and friendliness, but more hugs. IYSWIM. Or more realistically the desire for something like current levels of traffic.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #86 on: April 02, 2020, 06:58:32 pm »
Yes, noticing more leisure cycling here in Waltham Forest.

Phil W

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #87 on: April 02, 2020, 07:59:15 pm »
It would indeed be one positive outcome of this period. Loads out tonight who clearly aren’t regulars at it. I hope they become regulars or at least appreciate the cyclist point of view more if not. Most are being a bit more human on the roads at the moment.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #88 on: April 03, 2020, 10:51:28 pm »
Its not  yet clear if , in London, that the new infra made a significant difference to numbers cycling or if they were  riding already and then shifted their routes to the new infra. The latter is not a bad  thing.
I would have thought that cycle campaigners in the big city would have been organised enough to at least have a reasonable idea of how much cycling there was before the new routes came along. Surely it’s not all that hard to count numbers of cyclists on a few key routes from time to time so as to have some data on how the new routes have changed things.
 
... What  I do see , however, is a conflict emerging between pedestrians who  have to share  space , especially at  bus  stops with cycle paths that are inadequate .
I do wonder why cycle campaigners don’t see the unfortunate bike vs pedestrian incidents as an opportunity to promote the idea if presumed liability. Whilst incidents that go to court seem almost certain to rule against the cyclist, pedestrians often complain about perceived danger from cyclists. Presumed liability might afford them some comfort and give cyclists reason to be careful, the benefits to cyclists obviously come from giving motorists a reason to actually look where they are going.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2020, 08:28:14 pm »
There are clearly lots of new (or returner or otherwise irregular) cyclists out but statistics show total number of cyclists have dropped roughly the same proportion as cars. So there must have been a change in the type of people cycling; the regular commuters are no longer out, obviously, and the same for the regular shoppers and leisure riders (there's probably quite an overlap between these anyway) but new people have taken their place.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #90 on: April 04, 2020, 09:04:30 pm »
I'm seeing a lot more leisure cyclists outside the urban area (roughly a 50:50 mix of old and new judging by speed and bike/kit).  In town, the predominant type of cyclist is now the accompanied[1] child on the pavement[2], with younger people using BSOs as transport now safely outnumbering the more 'serious' commuter cyclists (who I expect are now mostly at home, with a few taking to the lanes in lycra).  I haven't seen a Brompton for ages, and of course most of the students with their novel forms of electric transport have gone.

(Disclaimer: I've been avoiding off-road routes for social distancing reasons.  I expect there's still a fair amount of cycling going on there.)


[1] About half the accompanying adults are on bikes themselves.
[2] Today I spotted two separate families making good use of a closed-to-motorists car park for losing-the-stabilisers purposes.   :thumbsup:
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #91 on: April 04, 2020, 09:16:30 pm »
Ian , there is a strongly held belief within the London Cycling Campaign that if you build dutch style infra then , as if by magic, people  will cycle.
Would that not be a good thing though, and provide impetus for the next step. Surely there is a need to provide an alternative that seems to be at least as safe and convenient as what they would have done otherwise before it is really practical to start large scale blocking of through routes to force motorists onto feeder roads away from the built up areas like residential areas and city centres. That would make driving for short journeys more inconvenient and give a convenience advantage to cycling, at least for the kinds of journeys that it is genuinely useful for.

Anyway, isn’t it really the case that Dutch style infra only really exists beside major roads that see sufficient traffic that scarcely anybody would consider it as a suitable route if there wasn’t a decent cycle path next to it. It’s not just that people know the main roads because they drive them but they are also the easiest routes being direct and with the gentlest gradients. Why would you not want high quality segregated infrastructure alongside roads that would be horrible to cycle anyway?

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #92 on: April 04, 2020, 09:45:14 pm »
I am foolishly dreaming of lockdown Sundays as the positive outcome of all this.


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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #93 on: April 04, 2020, 09:58:32 pm »
There used to be something in Bristol called Make Sunday Special but it was only the very centre, about half of which is pedestrianised anyway. (And of course the shops were all open, that was the point of it)
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mattc

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #94 on: April 05, 2020, 08:50:46 am »
I am foolishly dreaming of lockdown Sundays as the positive outcome of all this.

Are you including the social distancing part??
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles