Author Topic: Don't commute it will hospitalise you  (Read 3476 times)

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2020, 01:32:00 pm »
The original post is odd. Conventional medical wisdom has been that the life expectancy benefits of cycling exceed the risks by maybe twenty times (relevant links below). What's interesting in the current crisis is that life expectancy benefits are quite long term, whereas accidents would increase (a little) immediately, so the balance may change a bit. The government is quite clear that we need to keep exercising, and that can't all be indoors, even if it's right that cycling events are being cancelled. And some countries are effectively banning cycling, even though it might actually keep people out of hospital, as opposed to increasing demand?

I'm feeling it because, after a heart bypass, I'm trying extra hard to average ten miles a day and to lose a little weight. Much harder if I can't go to the gym (which is definitely risky owing to cross-contamination) and people are starting to say we shouldn't even use bikes outside at all.

Links:

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2020, 09:03:14 pm »
Generally we are not very good at assessing risks, and tend to overestimate the more immediate and acute risks associated with cycling (although perhaps understandably because it seems scary), whereas the rather more serious risk of mortality associated with inactivity seems to be considerably underestimated, perhaps because it happens over a fairly prolonged period of time. Many more people die every year from diseases associated with inactivity than suffer minor injuries cycling, but cycling is still too scary for the vast majority of people.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2020, 10:01:59 pm »
I've tried the direct route, but being passed too closely by a stream of vehicles travelling at 60 odd mph is not fun. The 'quiet' route has seen me close passed by a fish van from Gateshead every time I've ridden it and the cars move faster on a narrower road. There are people that commute by bike from Harrogate to Leeds, but I'm not one I'm afraid - now if there were infrastructure and I wasn't working from home for the forseeable.


vorsprung

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2020, 07:29:55 am »
The original post is odd. Conventional medical wisdom has been that the life expectancy benefits of cycling exceed the risks by maybe twenty times

yes and the results of the study show this
As Reg and others have said it seems a bit of a conceptually flawed bit of research

Riding a bike is a bit like the lottery.  The chances of winning are diminishingly tiny but you have to be in it to win it

The chances of a bike accident are tiny but if you do then hospitalisation is likely.  If we didn't go on the road we wouldn't be open to this improbable possibility

If the study says anything it's that like oh so many things in 21st century neo liberal Britain
Socially efficient measures like cycling infrastructure are not used.
Audaxing Blog follow @vorsprungbike on

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2020, 09:00:18 am »
I wonder if they had < 1 day > 1 day how it would look.  How many of the hospitalisations were precautionary “we’d better check you over and clean you up” rather than life saving operations?
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2020, 09:14:36 am »
The bit about new cycle commuters thinking they need to ride their car commute is spot on. Saw it so many times till we helped them with initial commutes by having a mentoring scheme as part of the BUG. Basically an experienced cycle commuter that lived close enough (or their route went close to the newbie) would show them the optimum routes and answer any questions as they rode along to / from work. Sometimes they ended up cycling to work together all the time or the new cycle commuter would get going on their own after a few weeks.
If you don’t make time for exercise now, sooner or later you’ll need to make time for ill health.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2020, 11:14:48 am »
...
What's interesting in the current crisis is that life expectancy benefits are quite long term, whereas accidents would increase (a little) immediately, so the balance may change a bit. The government is quite clear that we need to keep exercising, and that can't all be indoors, even if it's right that cycling events are being cancelled. And some countries are effectively banning cycling, even though it might actually keep people out of hospital, as opposed to increasing demand?
...

Against this has to be balanced the higher risk of infection from travelling on public transport, which would be the main option for people in cities.  Roads in London are a lot quieter now, so motor traffic is faster but less impatient. 
Peter

arabella

  • no se porque yo no lo se
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #32 on: March 19, 2020, 07:44:06 pm »
Cyclists don't automatically know there's a safe and/or better alternative though, especially if you're unfamiliar with the area.
Very true.  I live in Ipswich and ain't familiar with that particular option.  And once you notice a cycle route, it may not be posible to join it (kerbs etc), and in any case how do you know the route isn't going to turn off and go somewhere completely different (any signposts also require local knowledge).  Or if you do know where it goes then you also know that the surface is carp compared to the road, that you have no priority and have to give way to every side road etc etc..  There still isn't the mentality that cycling is transport and to get from A to B efficiently rather than a leisure(ly) pootle.
In the dark, all views are the same.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2020, 11:21:53 pm »



If the study outcome suggests 3 fewer deaths for cycling,  why does the title suggest the opposite?
   Eddington  87 miles

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2020, 08:27:09 am »
Cyclists don't automatically know there's a safe and/or better alternative though, especially if you're unfamiliar with the area. (Nor for that matter is twatty driving the fault of the cyclist, that's just blaming the victim as ever.)

The article is infrastructurist propaganda.
Apologies, but I have been busy elsewhere. Here's some improved trolling.

Infrastructralism - a school of thought within  English cycle campaigning which argues that the only way to increase cycling is to build more dutch infrastructure. Any cycling not on dedicated and separate cycle paths is dangerous.

As such this view ignore the significant cultural and historic reasons for the larger numbers of cyclists in the Netherlands and the reasons for lower numbers in the UK and the absence of diversity in cycling. For example; London's cycle network remains one largely used by white middle-class men commuting into central London.

It has a tendency to fetishise Dutch cycling culture and sees cycling as identity politics and, increasingly, as part  of the Extinction Rebellion movement.



Infrastruralism's straw man enemy is vehicular cycling. It struggles with complex systems and is not really sure what to do about pedestrians or public transport, but their solution to almost all problems is more cycling on dutch type infrastructure. That the new infrastructure might interfere with bus services or reduce and worsen space for pedestrians is usually ignored by an Infrastructure. Both the bus stops and the pavements shared with the cycle paths on the Lea Bridge Road in Waltham Forest, London, are a good example of this conflict.

Infrastruralism is most commonly found at the LCC in London, and within groups such as Stop Killing Cyclists, and on Twitter. It can some times also appear under the name " Active Travel".

Come on, if you're going to troll, at least make some effort.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2020, 03:53:45 pm »
Anyone wondering whats going to happen when all this is over? Cycling is almost treated as an exemption from the soft lockdown by some. Everyone else has issues, no pub, football, golf and non essential shopping. I am going to stay clear once everything is back to normal. I expect a backlash to happen.

diapsaon0

  • Advena ego sum in terra
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #36 on: March 26, 2020, 04:45:39 pm »
Bike shops are reporting a bonanza - both on sales of (mainly) cheap bikes and on repairs of bikes which have been laid up for years.  Perhaps we dare hope that these people will enjoy riding again and will keep going when this is all over.
Advena ego sum in Terra

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #37 on: March 26, 2020, 05:10:43 pm »
True about bike shops, cant get an xl turbo trainer mat anywhere. My new turbo has slightly longer legs and the standard mats are too narrow. Has everyone gone out and bought a new turbo?

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2020, 05:34:34 pm »
True about bike shops, cant get an xl turbo trainer mat anywhere. My new turbo has slightly longer legs and the standard mats are too narrow. Has everyone gone out and bought a new turbo?

Yes, Wiggle completely out of stock. Evans have been selling turbos for 15% higher than RRP.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2020, 06:40:51 pm »
Yes, I tried to get a replacement and there are none to be had.

We did wangle an expensive exercise bike though (cost more than an actual bike that, well, goes places when you pedal). That said, at 42kg, I wouldn't fancy trying to ride it up a hill.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2020, 07:07:45 pm »
People are driving very fast on the empty roads.  It's put me off, so I'm on the turbo or running (yuck).
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

mattc

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Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2020, 08:55:27 pm »
People are driving very fast on the empty roads.  It's put me off, so I'm on the turbo or running (yuck).
Roads very quiet at all hours. Apart from the very occasional Ayrton Senna*, folks have been *exceptionally* sensible in their cars round here (so I presume your problems are Swindon-based? ;) )
I've done lots of extra miles on the way home, and on every type of road the drivers have been good. In fact I didn't see any speeding today, quite the opposite.

There seem to be a few hot-spots for the craziness - my sympathies to anyone in those places (well, maybe just London):
https://twitter.com/SuptAndyCox/status/1242770214552567808


*a close colleague admitted to 100mph briefly in a 60 yesterday. He did used to be a cop overseas :facepalm:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #42 on: March 27, 2020, 12:49:20 am »
The only speeding I'm seeing is people ignoring 20mph speed limits, which only really work because people get stuck behind the one driver who obeys them.

A few examples of 'nippy' parking manoeuvres, but those are more than cancelled out by the massive reduction in close passes and bullying at pinch-points, on account of the lack of oncoming traffic.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #43 on: March 27, 2020, 08:26:01 am »
Likewise. In the social-distancing days pre-lockdown, I heard but didn't see some fast driving up the Gloucester Rd but since lockdown, nothing. And you can wander around in the middle of the A38. It's good!
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #44 on: March 27, 2020, 08:49:16 am »
The article is infrastructurist propaganda.
If infrastructure is so bad could you please provide some examples of modern societies that have achieved either mass cycling, or very high mobility in very densely populated urban areas without any associated public health problems related to either air pollution or inactivity without segregated infrastructure?

Given that the places where levels of cycling are highest all seem to have lots of high quality segregated infrastructure it doesn’t seem unreasonable for people to assume that infrastructure is the best solution.

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2020, 09:19:00 am »
Thanks  for  your  response,


Well, the only examples we have are the Netherlands and possibly parts of  Denmark.

Certainly,  separate infrastructure has played a part but there seem to be other reasons.
In Holland, it's clear that housing density and road structure play a part as does a much deeper cycling culture that's significantly different to ours. It's also a classic mistake in programme management to think that you can just lift and shift a solution from another country, organisation, or culture and expecting it to work.

My point is about  "infrastructuralists"  obsession with infrastructure as the only answer to the challenge of  getting our country cycling and their dismissal of other views.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2020, 09:22:27 am »
I suspect there'd be a lot fewer drivers if the only roads available were unpaved, occasionally just muddy tracks, that never offered a direct route and sometimes just stopped in the middle of nowhere.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #47 on: March 27, 2020, 10:26:48 am »
Then  they  could  join the Rough Stuff Fellowship...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #48 on: March 27, 2020, 01:53:09 pm »
My parents lived on a long, straight, suburban avenue in a location that served as a mild shortcut for people heading to a nearby village.  It achieved a sort of filtered permeability by means of a ~100m section of privately-owned road at one end, which was unsurfaced and deliberately kept in a sufficiently poor state of repair that it was only ever used by residents at sub-walking-speed.

(My brother and I decided that it was compulsory to hum the riff from No Surface All Feeling by the Manic Street Preachers while bouncing over it.)


Cycling infrastructure helps people use bikes, but real change is about engineering people's car use and travel habits.  The most useful piece of cycle infrastructure is the Mk 1 bollard, converting a rat-run into a residential street.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Don't commute it will hospitalise you
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2020, 02:03:16 pm »
"Streets not thoroughfares!"
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.