Author Topic: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?  (Read 1008 times)

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« on: April 28, 2020, 10:40:13 pm »
Not had a tele since the CRT days - and used that with a Sky box and dish up until 8 years ago. Gave the Sky box away but still have the coax cable hooked up to a working dish (2 cables from dish, one to me and one to downstairs neighbour, whose tele is still receiving from the dish)

https://www.johnlewis.com/lg-43um7400plb-2019-led-hdr-4k-ultra-hd-smart-tv-43-inch-with-freeview-play-freesat-hd-ultra-hd-certified-dark-iron-grey/p4125246

Arrived today. I thought it had a built in Freesat receiver and I could just plug the old coax cable and I'd be back watching and swearing at the tele again.

But it can't find any signal. Does that mean I do in fact require a set top box?

I've tried to search online (there's no set up instructions with the TV) but I'm pretty stoopid and can't find an answer ::-)

Would a kind YACF soul put me right and out of my misery please?

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2020, 10:46:24 pm »
Built in Freeview maybe? Freesat is different.

Freeview - Non-subscription digital terrestrial TV off a coax/aerial.
Freesat - Non-subscription digital satellite TV (probably needs a set-top box)

But I could be wrong - although we have TVs, none of them are connected to anything except the internet.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2020, 11:07:01 pm »
The specs do appear to suggest it has a DVB-S tuner.  (And if it didn't the OP would probably be wondering how to connect an F plug into a Belling-Lee socket or something.)

So yeah, could be the TV.  Could be user error.  Could be the LNB or the cable.

Just as a sanity check, when you say it can't find any signal, does that mean that the tuning process is showing no signal strength/quality, or that you're just pressing buttons for random channels and seeing nothing?  (If you're of the CRT era, you may have missed that digital TVs need to search for and memorise the muxes/channels before you can 'tune' to them.  You may need to tell it what country you're in or something so it uses the right bands.)

This appears to be the relevant support page, and the cutesy abomination linked on the right seems to be what passes for a user manual.  The "tour of settings" section seems to describe tuning procedures under 'programmes'


(Sharing an LNB with a neighbour like that is bad practice, because earthing and stuff.  Pragmatically, I wouldn't worry about it.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2020, 11:18:55 pm »
Freesat have a page here telling you exactly which options to select:
https://www.freesat.co.uk/help/setting-freesat-lg-tvs/

(Assuming you’re newer TV has the same options as those older models)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 11:33:01 pm »
Freesat have a page here telling you exactly which options to select:
https://www.freesat.co.uk/help/setting-freesat-lg-tvs/

*wanders off tutting in disbelief that you need an internet connection to tune in a televison*
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2020, 08:20:32 am »
Ta very much Kim :)

The specs do appear to suggest it has a DVB-S tuner.  (And if it didn't the OP would probably be wondering how to connect an F plug into a Belling-Lee socket or something.)

That's the assumption I made from the product blurb too.

Pics of cable from satellite dish (NB this did work when last used with a Sky box)






So yeah, could be the TV.  Could be user error.  Could be the LNB or the cable.

Just as a sanity check, when you say it can't find any signal, does that mean that the tuning process is showing no signal strength/quality, or that you're just pressing buttons for random channels and seeing nothing?

The "tour of settings" section seems to describe tuning procedures under 'programmes'

Yep, followed all the instructions and location inputs and it went off looking for stuff but no programmes found and no signal indicated in graphic.


(Sharing an LNB with a neighbour like that is bad practice, because earthing and stuff.  Pragmatically, I wouldn't worry about it.)

It's what a Sky engineer rigged up cos he couldn't be bothered to install an additional new dish for me (downstairs already had the one that's there)

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2020, 08:23:08 am »
Thanks grams :)

Freesat have a page here telling you exactly which options to select:
https://www.freesat.co.uk/help/setting-freesat-lg-tvs/

(Assuming you’re newer TV has the same options as those older models)

Followed those instructions - a software update was available and applied, but still no joy  :(

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2020, 09:28:09 am »
Is there a signal strength meter built into the TV? If it is, it will be deep in the setup menu somewhere.

Have you checked the voltage coming out of the TV aerial inlet? The LNB is powered from the TV, with power going up the cable, and signal coming back down. The TV should produce 13 V or 19 V. It would also be a good idea to measure the voltage with the cable connected, although you'll have to work out how to get to the centre core with it connected. You may need to sacrifice a few cm of cable for that.

The LNB could be faulty and be only sending signal to one wire. The cable could be faulty / full of water / eaten by rodents / missing in part. Can you take the TV to the neighbours and see if it works where there is a known signal? Could you borrow a known working satellite receiver to see if it can see a signal? If you don't change its settings, it should just work with the selections of channels that the owner normally has.
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2020, 10:11:01 am »
You could try the John Lewis help line (or whatever they call it) - I assume you bought it from them as you linked to their website for the model details.  When our TV was proving reluctant to work properly I rang them and they went through several different things with me, including a new update of the software and it worked!  The chap I had was really good as well as patient, knew how the TV worked and what to press to make it do various things (although I assume he was looking it all up on the 'net somewhere).

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2020, 02:57:23 pm »
Thanks Chris S, Diver300 and Little Jim :)

Just off the phone with John Lewis tech support, who confirmed the tele does have a built in Freesat tuner and does not require a "set top box". The only diagnostic advice offered was to turn it off for a minute in case of static issues and try again. I had done a factory reset also this morning to no avail.

Please could the most helpful panel concur with my assumption that if the tele isn't communicating successfully with the satellite dish and my old bodged up coaxial wiring (whose connections I completely remade today just in case) are functioing, the tele would not recognise the satellite's identification as: "ASTRA 28.2E" ?

Here's a couple of pics of the tuning process and the zero result:





John Lewis are sending a replacement new TV next Wednesday. In the meantime I will borrow my neighbour's Sky box and tele tomorrow - to confirm (or not) the dish and cabling are working upsteps here in Snowdon Towers (I wouldn't know how to dial, where to prod and poke a voltmeter, if I had one :-[ )

Edited to undo knicker twists

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2020, 03:49:20 pm »
All I can suggest is to try the tuning with the satellite cable disconnected, and see if the Astra satellite is missing or is pre-programmed.
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2020, 03:59:01 pm »
^ good call

Just done it - Sat dish cable disconnected - still listing the Astra 28.2E satellite

So I really do need to check the dish wiring connection BEFORE John Lewis deliver another TV

Fortunately have time

Thanks Diver300 :)


Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2020, 04:03:32 pm »
Almost certainly signal from the dish, rather than anything else, as others have said

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2020, 07:14:11 pm »
Think the most useful step forward would be to take the new LG tele downstairs to the nice neighbours who share the satellite dish and see if it tunes using their cabling. It's not like wobbling weak kneed down the rough stone steps with a 32" Panasonic CRT after all ;)

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2020, 08:29:01 am »
Having had satellite issues in the past, the co-ax connections in the dish receiver itself may need redoing, is simple.

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2020, 10:09:02 am »
Think the most useful step forward would be to take the new LG tele downstairs to the nice neighbours who share the satellite dish and see if it tunes using their cabling. It's not like wobbling weak kneed down the rough stone steps with a 32" Panasonic CRT after all ;)

That would be the logical next step then at least you know if the TV is working or not.  Next problem: how to achieve that with social distancing...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2020, 12:33:23 pm »
Having had satellite issues in the past, the co-ax connections in the dish receiver itself may need redoing, is simple.

Would be my next point of suspicion, especially since Sky engineers are involved.

If water's got into the coax, the cable will need replacing.  Soggy coax is basically a short circuit to RF.

Or it might be a duff port on the LNB, in which case fitting a new one isn't difficult, as long as you can get at it.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2020, 01:37:57 pm »
I might be way off base here, but is it not the case that  a dual output LNB can have more than one receiver connected to it, but cannot receive from two different transponders simultaneously.    I think that may mean that if your neighbours are still receiving Sky from that LNB, you may not be able to receive freesat at the same time. 

If so you may be able to overcome the problem by installing a multi-switch.

cheers

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2020, 01:51:03 pm »
Photo of dish taken hanging out of bedroom window. For some reason downstairs have two cables from the LNB! My third one loops off and into the guttering (as routed by Sky man) before entering my flat via oak kitchen window frame.

It's spitting with rain and heavy downpours are forecast, so not inclined to walk up the track to borrow a ladder nor bother downstairs neighbours to hook up my tele to their sat dish cable - which I'm pretty sure they will be amenable to  :)

Don't see any problem organising 'social distancing' guidelines for the latter 'perfomance' - alert, position, retreat, await next manoeuvre etc, followed by more of that kinda thing, then destroy gloves, wash hands, smile and give thanks :)


Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2020, 03:05:16 pm »
I might be way off base here, but is it not the case that  a dual output LNB can have more than one receiver connected to it, but cannot receive from two different transponders simultaneously.    I think that may mean that if your neighbours are still receiving Sky from that LNB, you may not be able to receive freesat at the same time. 

No, the multi-output LNBs have independent switching of band and polarisation on each output.  That's why we have them instead of downstream splitters.

You can get special 4-output LNBs with each combination on one socket, for feeding into a distribution system.

But even if that were the problem (eg. due to a faulty LNB or a DC fault on the cable), you'd still expect to see the muxes in the one available combination.


(For reference, the difference between "Sky" and "Freesat" is mostly branding, and the ability to decrypt their encrypted channels.  BBC 1 London, for example, is the same stream in the same mux on the same transponder whatever you receive it with.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2020, 03:08:18 pm »
For some reason downstairs have two cables from the LNB!

As discussed above, if you want to receive more than one mux at the same time, they either have to be on a transponder in the same band and polarisation, or you need a separate independently-switched feed for the additional tuner from the LNB.  Hence boxes that include the ability to record have two separate tuners with their own feed, to allow you to watch one programme while recording another, even when they're on different muxes.

(You can record all programmes within a mux using a single tuner, but that's a usability nightmare.  MythTV, for example, can do it, but imagine the support calls you'd get if you sold people a 'Sky' box that suddenly 'lost' all the non-BBC channels because it was recording BBC 2, or could only record more than one channel 'sometimes')
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2020, 03:12:07 pm »
I might be way off base here, but is it not the case that  a dual output LNB can have more than one receiver connected to it, but cannot receive from two different transponders simultaneously.    I think that may mean that if your neighbours are still receiving Sky from that LNB, you may not be able to receive freesat at the same time. 

No, the multi-output LNBs have independent switching of band and polarisation on each output.  That's why we have them instead of downstream splitters.

You can get special 4-output LNBs with each combination on one socket, for feeding into a distribution system.

But even if that were the problem (eg. due to a faulty LNB or a DC fault on the cable), you'd still expect to see the muxes in the one available combination.


(For reference, the difference between "Sky" and "Freesat" is mostly branding, and the ability to decrypt their encrypted channels.  BBC 1 London, for example, is the same stream in the same mux on the same transponder whatever you receive it with.)

The exception (which I doubt is the case for Slope) is Sky Q, which needs a particular (hybrid?) type of LNB to run either Sky+ or Freesat alongside.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2020, 03:21:18 pm »
*googles*

Ah, that'll be a new product that's come along since I stopped caring about television.  Sounds like it's following the MythTV model of a box full of tuners and disk, with client boxes that stream data from that over IP networking in other rooms.

It uses a new type of LNB that combines[1] the high and low bands, so it only needs to provide the horizontal and vertical polarisation on separate feeds.

A hybrid LNB appears to be one that provides these two new wideband signals for a SkyQ box, with traditional four-way switching outputs for normal tuners in other rooms.


[1] In a way that's going to be a massive headache for anyone responsible for a communal distribution system.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2020, 05:57:50 pm »
Think the most useful step forward would be to take the new LG tele downstairs to the nice neighbours who share the satellite dish and see if it tunes using their cabling. It's not like wobbling weak kneed down the rough stone steps with a 32" Panasonic CRT after all ;)

That would be the logical next step then at least you know if the TV is working or not.  Next problem: how to achieve that with social distancing...

Taking that one step further would be to borrow their TV (assuming they don't mind) and connect it to your cable - that will give you the full picture (excuse the pun) or not. This will confirm a cable issue or oddly a specific combination of your new TV and your cable.

In one of your pictures it looks like there is some loose braiding emerging from one of the connectors - if you can unscrew this and take it apart make sure that there is no short across to the inner conductor.

Also I can see that there is a cable exiting through the corner of the window. Is this trapped and subject to stresses when the window is open and closed or does it go through a hole in a fixed frame which would be better - can't quite tell from the photo but would be definitely worth checking the condition of the cable there.

I've had Sky in the past and subsequently bought a TV with Freesat HD built in. It is literally just the case of doing exactly what you have tried - connect cable and tune TV.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Newbie dunce head "Smart" TV question/problem?
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2020, 06:09:21 pm »
In one of your pictures it looks like there is some loose braiding emerging from one of the connectors - if you can unscrew this and take it apart make sure that there is no short across to the inner conductor.

That's pretty normal for F-connectors, unless whoever installed it was unusually careful about trimming to the correct length.  But yes, worth checking for stray braid causing shorts.

The connector itself is literally just a shell that screws onto the outside of the coax, with the braid folded back to get caught in the screw thread.  The centre conductor of the coax becomes the central pin.  This is cheap, easy to install, and a whole lot more reliable than you might reasonably expect - admittedly the Belling-Lee connector (which is a work of Stan) sets a pretty low standard.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...