Author Topic: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?  (Read 9853 times)

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2020, 03:12:44 pm »
The (massively subsidised) availability of the car is what has wrought the poor state of public transportation. The motor vehicle is what creates sprawl. "public transportation" is supposed to pay for itself - even while road duty is frozen and £27 bn is ploughed into highway building out of the treasury.

Stopgap solution can be a mobility hub schemes - i.e. a shared cargo pedelec/electric vehicle on a community basis. Supported by subsidies. Basically instead of having entire lanes crammed with idle cars, you just have one or three which are used as and when. But fundamentally the reign of the motoring royalty lording it over the rest of us has to stop. In Loughborough Junction fewer than a third of the households there have a car or van. But they breathe in all the foul toxins. Unacceptable.
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Ban cars.

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2020, 03:21:30 pm »
Going back to the OP (I'm sure there's a place for discussing whether we hate cars somewhere else on the forum), my anecdotal and generalised  input is that drivers are being a little more tolerant of pedestrians and cyclists but otherwise are behaving much the same as normal and driving as fast as the road conditions (not speed limits) will allow.

There's a notable increase in speed on the A20 near me (at which point it is still a two lane urban road with shops and houses, not the motorway it becomes further out of London), offset only by the reduced traffic. On the 20mph residential streets, typical speeds I'd say are about normal, i.e. 30-35mph, with some spectacular exceptions.

Will it last? I doubt it.
Anecdotally....
I live two streets away from the South Circular.
Ordinarily, if I want to cross this on foot, I'll use the Pelican crossing on account of the traffic being heavy, but not moving slowly enough to dive between the vehicles.
Currently, there are substantial gaps in the traffic - maybe 5 to 10 seconds (or more) between vehicles. This is enough time to get across the road safely.
Only you can't because one of those vehicles will be taking advantage of the lack of traffic , and moving at  a speed well in excess of that of the speed limit, meaning that you'd to cross the road in between two and three seconds.
I can't move that fast.

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2020, 03:22:14 pm »
@bludger The motoring royalty is 87% of people. That is the issue.

I don't disagree with your root point, but the answer is not to 'ban cars', just because it is a solution which wouldnt harm you.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #53 on: May 07, 2020, 03:26:57 pm »
87% the households != 87% the people.

Don't the children in those households count for anything? The people whose lives are on the line of cars aren't banned?

Everyone stands to benefit from banning cars. It is imperative that it happens for the future of this country. And the wider species.
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Ban cars.

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #54 on: May 07, 2020, 03:57:33 pm »
Everyone stands to benefit from banning cars. It is imperative that it happens for the future of this country.
There are millions of people who rely on the car industry for their livlihoods, and those for whom
public transport is not an option. I think you would probably have a difficult time convincing them.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #55 on: May 07, 2020, 04:01:59 pm »
Probably. Doesn't make it any less correct. The idea of an economic system that is predicated on the production of products that kill and maim our own children is absurd. Even before factoring in that this is an industry which is subsidised with tens of billions of everyone else's money every year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-provisional-estimates-year-ending-june-2018

1700 deaths a year. 26,600 serious hospitalisations. Who knows how many more killed from the air pollution, and being frightened off cycling and walking etc. Not tenable.
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Ban cars.

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #56 on: May 07, 2020, 04:13:51 pm »
Probably. Doesn't make it any less correct. The idea of an economic system that is predicated on the production of products that kill and maim our own children is absurd. Even before factoring in that this is an industry which is subsidised with tens of billions of everyone else's money every year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-provisional-estimates-year-ending-june-2018

1700 deaths a year. 26,600 serious hospitalisations. Who knows how many more killed from the air pollution, and being frightened off cycling and walking etc. Not tenable.
How will you change the status quo?

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #57 on: May 07, 2020, 04:18:58 pm »
On topic - I had to go to the office today to collect my stuff (and screens etc) because anything still in there next week will be sold/thrown away by the administrators. There were very few cars in the large business park where the office is, but traffic on the (A) roads was not noticeably quieter than a normal weekday. While I suspect that retail centres (and the roads around them) are quieter than normal, I think the lockdown effect is disappearing on the main roads.

bludger

  • Randonneur and bargain hunter
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #58 on: May 07, 2020, 04:30:36 pm »
How will you change the status quo?
Banning cars.

anyway I'm going to leave it here if people want to focus on speeding etc. But the facts are that in London (as posted on page one) that speeding is completely out of control here. A policewoman was killed on her bike less than a fortnight ago.
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Ban cars.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #59 on: May 07, 2020, 04:34:07 pm »
The (massively subsidised) availability of the car is what has wrought the poor state of public transportation.

Indeed.

But hyperbole won't get that changed.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #60 on: May 07, 2020, 04:40:54 pm »
How will you change the status quo?
Banning cars.

anyway I'm going to leave it here if people want to focus on speeding etc. But the facts are that in London (as posted on page one) that speeding is completely out of control here. A policewoman was killed on her bike less than a fortnight ago.
How would you propose banning cars?

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #61 on: May 07, 2020, 06:16:10 pm »
How will you change the status quo?
Banning cars.

anyway I'm going to leave it here if people want to focus on speeding etc. But the facts are that in London (as posted on page one) that speeding is completely out of control here. A policewoman was killed on her bike less than a fortnight ago.
How would you propose banning cars?
This is way OT now, but De Sisti has asked a good question. The way to ban cars is not to ban cars because that way lies riots and economic and social breakdown. It might be possible through incrementally making cars expensive and useless; taxes, parking restrictions and so on. I'm one of the 13% for whom they're already expensive and useless; the real elite(!), so I don't mind...
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ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #62 on: May 07, 2020, 07:07:43 pm »
I don't think cars are inherently wrong or evil, but their dominance and our abject reliance on them is both figuratively and literally toxic. It's shocking that if you ask anyone, they'll probably know someone relatively close to them who has been killed or seriously injured in some kind of car-related accident. And I use 'accident' advisedly.

Cars impact every aspect of our lives, it's not just the death, injury and pollution, it's the way they carve up our towns, feed the endless sprawl, kill our high streets and communities, not to mention the fact that having to run a car or three empties our bank accounts.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #63 on: May 07, 2020, 07:13:06 pm »
Crystal ball:
Electric vehicles fuelled from renewable sources - no pollution
Advanced AI - minimising avoidable accidents

or public transport (available and not dirty diesels) decent enough around here to make me give up my car?

I know which one will happen sooner.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #64 on: May 07, 2020, 07:35:08 pm »
None of that really addresses the problem. Why are we forced to travel everywhere? I'd rather work and shop close to home, be able to walk or cycle to the things I want to do. Actually live in a community rather than a car park.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #65 on: May 07, 2020, 10:05:49 pm »
Electric vehicles fuelled from renewable sources - no pollution
Electric vehicles produce less pollution, but they still produce particulate emissions from brake, tyre, and road wear, so many estimates suggest that the reduction in pollutants is only about 50%.

Rather ironically the only areas where electric vehicles are really beneficial are city centres, and lots of those journeys could be made by bike with even less pollution, less congestion, and additional benefits to public health through higher levels of activity.

Seriously restricting the freedom to use cars in city centres should be a priority from many perspectives.

IanDG

  • The p*** artist formerly known as 'Windy'
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Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #66 on: May 07, 2020, 10:22:29 pm »
On the news tonight is a rise in speeding offences and decline in drink driving.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #67 on: May 07, 2020, 11:00:47 pm »
None of that really addresses the problem. Why are we forced to travel everywhere? I'd rather work and shop close to home, be able to walk or cycle to the things I want to do. Actually live in a community rather than a car park.

That's pretty much what I do.
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Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
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Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #68 on: May 08, 2020, 12:39:20 pm »
87% the households != 87% the people.

Don't the children in those households count for anything?

No.  No, they do not.  This is why BRITAIN is leaving the European Union.
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FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #69 on: May 08, 2020, 01:47:07 pm »
None of that really addresses the problem. Why are we forced to travel everywhere? I'd rather work and shop close to home, be able to walk or cycle to the things I want to do. Actually live in a community rather than a car park.

Centralization of work began before the bicycle, motorcar or comfortable horse carriages were available to the masses.

People moved into towns because work was available there because it had moved from the countryside.
The land was depopulated and the country became the bounds of the elite and farm labourers.

Most people who live out of town, now do so because of mass public transport and the motor car.

If you want to genuinely work near home but not live in town and decouple yourself from the legacy of mass private transport, you need to start sustenance farming.
I know that's not really what you're meaning.

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2020, 02:04:07 pm »
None of that really addresses the problem. Why are we forced to travel everywhere? I'd rather work and shop close to home, be able to walk or cycle to the things I want to do. Actually live in a community rather than a car park.
Good questions! I will give a couope of answers from my experience.
I worked at McLaren. The HQ is out on the common, a couple of miles out from Woking town centre. There are car parks provided.
But crucially a regular minibus shuttle from the station. Travelling from central London I would take a Tube to Waterloo, then train to Woking and the shuttle bus.

Working later at Viglen. Again the factory is  about three miles from Radlett train station.
But I drove every day, a grind round the M25 and the North circular.
Why? No minubus shuttle. The bus service was abysmal - a bus at 9am and the next one at 10 am or something like that.
I can't afford two taxis a day.  aha you say - use a bike. Well no, sorry. It is up the A1 on a big hill. And I dont want to change my clothes.
During that time also the Thameslink was bypassing London Bridge and I had to go via Blackfriars - which does not join up with the Jubilee Line.

So to be constructive:
Integrated public transport, as in Switzerland. You should expect to arrive at a rail station and a bus will be there to take you to your final destination.

Also why not car parks on the outskirts of cities? Cars are pretty convenient for long distances, and for lugging around the things you need for business.
Looking at London - why not park at the O2 and complete the final leg of journeys to home via the Tube?
The reason why - high costs for overnight parking and the chance of theft/vandalism on your car.

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2020, 02:14:33 pm »
So to be constructive:
Integrated public transport, as in Switzerland. You should expect to arrive at a rail station and a bus will be there to take you to your final destination.

Mostly we blew that bit when we deregulated the buses and privatised the railways. Buses used to be able to pull up with priority in front of the rail station, and in more enlightened circumstances a bit of overall control would mean the buses coordinated with the train arrivals/departures.
Rust never sleeps

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #72 on: May 08, 2020, 03:09:30 pm »
So to be constructive:
Integrated public transport, as in Switzerland. You should expect to arrive at a rail station and a bus will be there to take you to your final destination.

Mostly we blew that bit when we deregulated the buses and privatised the railways. Buses used to be able to pull up with priority in front of the rail station, and in more enlightened circumstances a bit of overall control would mean the buses coordinated with the train arrivals/departures.

Actually it goes back further - the company car as a means of getting round pay caps. The Railways were lost with Beeching.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #73 on: May 08, 2020, 03:41:16 pm »
Even with trains and buses here operated by the same company (First), there's not particular coordination. But then, there's not great coordination between trains on different lines all run by the same company. Partly this is because of the demands of signalling and the requirement to avoid trains crashing into each other, but it's also infrastructure, rolling stock and staffing.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Lockdown - has it made driving slower and drivers more courteous?
« Reply #74 on: May 08, 2020, 03:46:10 pm »
So to be constructive:
Integrated public transport, as in Switzerland. You should expect to arrive at a rail station and a bus will be there to take you to your final destination.

Mostly we blew that bit when we deregulated the buses and privatised the railways. Buses used to be able to pull up with priority in front of the rail station, and in more enlightened circumstances a bit of overall control would mean the buses coordinated with the train arrivals/departures.

Actually it goes back further - the company car as a means of getting round pay caps. The Railways were lost with Beeching.
I haven't been doing my homework. First I've heard of that. Must do some reading.
Rust never sleeps