Author Topic: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?  (Read 1293 times)

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2020, 11:23:15 am »
Japan and Indonesia would be good comparators, since their tradition of driving on the left does not derive from Britain.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2020, 11:33:12 am »
IIRC several Japanese manufacturers learned how to mass produce cars (as many did including BMW) from successful manufacturers such as Austin.   I don't know if that had anything to do with their choice of drive side, but it might have.

BTW I think it is eminently sensible to mandate one way and one way only for new bikes. To do otherwise is almost as mental as allowing folk to decide which side of the road they use for themselves, or having some cars with the pedals reversed etc.

IME folk who get exercised about cable routings being 'wrong' etc have usually got other things going on which they should be more worried about.....

cheers

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2020, 11:56:45 am »
Japan has been driving on the left since before significant Western contact and many centuries before cars. Indonesia drives on the left for the same reason as Suriname, Mozambique etc. Former colonies maintaining the ways abandoned by the colonisers. Come to that we could investigate the brake-hand customs of pre-WWII bikes in Central Europe.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2020, 12:30:19 pm »
... Come to that we could investigate the brake-hand customs of pre-WWII bikes in Central Europe.

a good portion of them would only have had one brake which changes things, especially if it is (or there is) a coaster brake.

Q. Do bells always go on the left? I have a feeling they might, even if that is the front brake side....?

cheers

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2020, 12:44:51 pm »
BTW I think it is eminently sensible to mandate one way and one way only for new bikes...…...IME folk who get exercised about cable routings being 'wrong' ……...

 :)  I rest my case.  It can't be argued rationally.   It goes down a rabbit hole.  Which side of the road people drive on is fairly arbitrary, it probably is linked to colonialism amongst many other things and it's not set in stone.  The link with the handing of bicycle brakes is fairly tenuous at best in my view. I guess back in the days of rod brakes and steel rims manufacturers were forced to make a choice and the combination of poor braking and a predominance of right handed people might've predicated right hand front but it's a long time ago. 

Brucey nailed it upthread - if you have to have a rule the only sensible one is that you should have what you're used to.  Hard to mandate this for new bikes though.  Perhaps retailers need to do a fact find first. I'm quite happy for everyone to have whatever they want.  If people want a global standard then the vote has already been taken.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2020, 12:49:06 pm »
Probably sensible to give the brake levers of any unfamiliar bike a squeeze before riding to sort out which is which (and to check they work).
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2020, 12:52:04 pm »

Q. Do bells always go on the left? I have a feeling they might, even if that is the front brake side....?

cheers

Arrrrrrgh.  ;D  No, they go wherever you want to put them.  If you've left ringing the bell to the point you need to brake than you've left it to late and you should just concentrate on braking.  YMMV.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2020, 12:54:10 pm »
if an emergency situation arises and the rider grabs a handful of front brake with only one hand on the bars, most folk go straight down in a messy way, even if the front brake isn't very good.

Have any recumbent riders been caught out by this?  Since you brace with your feet, it doesn't matter how you hold the bars under heavy braking, so you can get out of the habit if you've not ridden an upright for a while.  I find that it's self-limiting, in that when I do go back to an upright, the sense of feeling like I'm about to land on my face is such that I'm *extremely* careful with braking until I get used to it again.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2020, 12:56:00 pm »
Probably sensible to give the brake levers of any unfamiliar bike a squeeze before riding to sort out which is which (and to check they work).

+1  And your own bikes too!  This takes us into the next controversy - where should the QR for a brake be?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #34 on: May 12, 2020, 12:58:04 pm »
but back pedal brakes, only one brake etc can complicate this somewhat.

It still amazes me that there is no requirement for 2 brakes in this country. Esp given the love affair with back pedal brakes. I have yet to see a back pedal brake that comes even close to the braking performance of my Brompton. And Bromptons are notorious for poor braking. It's sufficiently shit that I generally consider a bike with coaster brakes as not having brakes.

The bikes at work of course have their brakes set up the reverse to what I am used to. Fortunately, being big ole cargo bikes, me hitting the front like it's a rear, would require quite a significant effort to make me go over the handle bars.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #35 on: May 12, 2020, 01:08:12 pm »
but back pedal brakes, only one brake etc can complicate this somewhat.

It still amazes me that there is no requirement for 2 brakes in this country. Esp given the love affair with back pedal brakes. I have yet to see a back pedal brake that comes even close to the braking performance of my Brompton. And Bromptons are notorious for poor braking. It's sufficiently shit that I generally consider a bike with coaster brakes as not having brakes.

Yeah, but that's only a problem if you put air in the tyres :)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #36 on: May 12, 2020, 01:28:48 pm »

Yeah, but that's only a problem if you put air in the tyres :)

Thanks for the reminder, I need to put air in the rear on the Brompton before I goto the shops...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #37 on: May 12, 2020, 01:29:15 pm »
Yeah but are the back pedal brakes on the left or right pedal?  :D
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #38 on: May 12, 2020, 01:30:46 pm »
Yeah but are the back pedal brakes on the left or right pedal?  :D

Which ever pedal is fitted...  :p

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #39 on: May 12, 2020, 01:33:36 pm »
Which leads us on to: starting with left or right foot. How is this linked to which side of the road you drive on? Does it vary by handlebar configuration? And by handedness of rider? Or dominant eye? Or shoe size?
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #40 on: May 12, 2020, 01:38:21 pm »
Which leads us on to: starting with left or right foot. How is this linked to which side of the road you drive on? Does it vary by handlebar configuration? And by handedness of rider? Or dominant eye? Or shoe size?

My impression is that most BRITONS start off with their right.  This seems the wrong way round from a side-of-the-road perspective, as the camber puts your right foot closer to the ground.  I think it's a dominant foot thing.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #41 on: May 12, 2020, 01:50:33 pm »
Which leads us on to: starting with left or right foot. How is this linked to which side of the road you drive on? Does it vary by handlebar configuration? And by handedness of rider? Or dominant eye? Or shoe size?

My impression is that most BRITONS start off with their right.  This seems the wrong way round from a side-of-the-road perspective, as the camber puts your right foot closer to the ground.  I think it's a dominant foot thing.

Also stand with the chain away from you when boarding.

Here most people seem to step through the frame from the left...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #42 on: May 12, 2020, 01:53:03 pm »
Which leads us on to: starting with left or right foot. How is this linked to which side of the road you drive on? Does it vary by handlebar configuration? And by handedness of rider? Or dominant eye? Or shoe size?

My impression is that most BRITONS start off with their right.  This seems the wrong way round from a side-of-the-road perspective, as the camber puts your right foot closer to the ground.  I think it's a dominant foot thing.

Makes sense if you’re standing on the pavement with the bike in the road though...

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #43 on: May 12, 2020, 01:54:36 pm »
Normally track stand when waiting to move off.
If I have a longer wait I put my left foot down as I can use the kerb, if available to reduce stretching my leg.
Remembering to use left leg when touring abroad

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #44 on: May 12, 2020, 02:00:54 pm »
Which leads us on to: starting with left or right foot. How is this linked to which side of the road you drive on? Does it vary by handlebar configuration? And by handedness of rider? Or dominant eye? Or shoe size?

My impression is that most BRITONS start off with their right.  This seems the wrong way round from a side-of-the-road perspective, as the camber puts your right foot closer to the ground.  I think it's a dominant foot thing.

Makes sense if you’re standing on the pavement with the bike in the road though...

GPWM.  That's why I always wheel a bike from the left, to the point of being surprisingly unskilled at doing so from the right.  (Which also makes sense from a chain-avoidance perspective.)  I've pointed this out to the molishers of wheeling ramps on a couple of occasions.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #45 on: May 12, 2020, 02:56:57 pm »
I'm also a right foot starter. I seem to remember that I used to be left foot but changed, though I can't quite remember when or why. Was it after I broke my left ankle? I don't think so. And I'm really, really clumsy at pushing a bike from the right. I don't think that's chain avoidance though, as I used to be clumsy at pushing a motorbike from the right (motos usually have the chain on the left, though far more variable than pedal cycles – opposite of the lever situation!).
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #46 on: May 12, 2020, 04:26:49 pm »
ISTR searching through the 'odd pedals' bin in a LBS years ago and they had many more left pedals that right ones, and said that they thought  this was because so many people started with the right foot, and that this high stress was the one that either started or finished the job of breaking the spindle.

OTOH ISTR hearing that the GPO used to buy in many more left pedals than rights, because posties broke LH pedals by 'scootering'.

FWIW about half of the worn chainrings I look at show clear signs of the rider having pushed somewhat harder with one foot (usually the right) than the other.

A significant minority of continental pro riders choose to have their brakes configured 'moto', even though that wouldn't have ever been 'normal' where they were brought up.  BITD, with non-aero cables, swapping sides was as easy as with flat bars.

cheers

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #47 on: May 12, 2020, 05:32:37 pm »
Back when I was riding a different bike every* day, it was pot luck which way round the brakes would be set up.

There was one occasion where the first time I realised the brakes were 'non moto' was when I had to make a hard stop on a wet descent after a bin lorry pulled out of a drive in front of me. The rear wheel locked up but I didn't slow down...

Somehow survived though. Got off the bike and inspected to see if I could work out the problem, and that was when I realised...  :facepalm:

Funny thing was I'd done a >100km ride the day before on the same bike without noticing. Even I'm not sure how that is possible.

Aside from that, I've generally never had a problem riding bikes with the brakes the wrong way round - as long as I remember to check before setting off.


*slight exaggeration

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #48 on: May 13, 2020, 10:35:08 am »
Which for you start from is only an issue when you go on a tandem.

Luckily the only two people I've ridden with have used the same for as me, so not been an issue.

Re: Shifter front /rear brake orientation?
« Reply #49 on: May 13, 2020, 10:38:36 am »
but back pedal brakes, only one brake etc can complicate this somewhat.

It still amazes me that there is no requirement for 2 brakes in this country. Esp given the love affair with back pedal brakes. I have yet to see a back pedal brake that comes even close to the braking performance of my Brompton. And Bromptons are notorious for poor braking. It's sufficiently shit that I generally consider a bike with coaster brakes as not having brakes.

The bikes at work of course have their brakes set up the reverse to what I am used to. Fortunately, being big ole cargo bikes, me hitting the front like it's a rear, would require quite a significant effort to make me go over the handle bars.

J

Weak brakes on bikes rarely cause problems, especially at low speeds, and with riders who are aware of how their brakes perform.

What does cause crashes and injuries is powerful brakes which lock up a wheel.

V brake levers on children's or utility bikes sometimes have pivots specifically to reduce the effectiveness of the brakes, I presume, for safety reasons.