Author Topic: COVID19 and Audax UK  (Read 35547 times)

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2020, 12:23:39 pm »
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2020, 12:38:41 pm »
Would this not be better off posted on the AUK official forum?

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php
To be fair, the thread already there hasn't produced a flood of detail from the board.

To be fair, that's because no-one has asked them about it specifically. There's only really been your question about what was said to the insurers. I don't see how AUK are supposed to guess from that that people want an update on plans for any kind of validation and whether AUK are even considering that.
Audax UK don't need to guess "that that people want an update on plans". It's called leadership and specifically sharing its vision with its membership. The board are all volunteers and of course they have other things to do. But suggesting that they will only consider action and let people know what the cunning plan is if people ask them to is to demean their intellect.

I wasn't suggesting that they will only consider action if people ask them, you misunderstand my point.

My previous points stand:-

1) They've already given an update on the AUK website and in that thread on the AUK forum.
2) They're working on a plan.
3) Some members want more detail (and sooner than AUK are looking to publish it) as they somehow think that a lack of detail = no plan whatsoever
4) The AUK board can't guess this, so either the members who want more detail need to let the board know that, or they can hope that the board guesses it
5) If you want to ask for (3) then the most obvious place to do so is the official AUK forum
6) It's up to the board what they do, they may just say "Yes, we're working on it". That may satisfy quite a few people from (3), but probably not all.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2020, 12:57:47 pm »
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2020, 01:11:59 pm »
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

S2L

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #29 on: May 25, 2020, 02:13:19 pm »
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.

Anyway, again, all academic as I don;t think there will be Audax events until it is safe to operate as per normal

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #30 on: May 25, 2020, 02:34:41 pm »
Thread now started on the AUK forum
http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1870
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #31 on: May 25, 2020, 02:57:40 pm »
Audax UK - Update 16 May 2020

"COVID-19 - Suspension of AUK rides: Update

"In the Chair's message to members last month, he said that the current suspension of recognition of AUK events would be reviewed if there were to be any meaningful and relevant change to the current guidance on social distancing and group activities from the government.

"Accordingly, we have studied the Prime Minister's statement of May 10th and the subsequent guidance issued, and have also considered the views and intentions of the devolved nations and the implications of those. We have also taken note of advice issued by other relevant bodies, such as Sport England, British Cycling, and Cycling UK, and consulted with our insurers.

"Our judgement is that it would be premature to make any changes to the suspension at the moment, particularly given that the amended guidance applies only to England, and that different conditions apply in the devolved nations. However, we are working on identifying and working through ways in which we might return to validating AUK events as soon as we conclude that it is both safe and responsible to do so."

AUK Board
May 16th 2020

So a particular (primary?) factor delaying the reintroduction of anything at all (eg DIYs and Pemanents as Phase 1) is that different conditions apply to the various home nations (Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are not "devolved nations" btw; some powers have been).
To allow people to look forward and plan, how about hearing what options have been identified and are being worked on so far, with  firm dates neither needed nor necessary.
PS Had a great ride yesterday.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #32 on: May 25, 2020, 03:07:03 pm »
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.

Anyway, again, all academic as I don;t think there will be Audax events until it is safe to operate as per normal
Or go digital. Spend some of the quazillions of IT budget (or get some sucker to do it for free) and build an eBrevetCard app. When you reach a control point, you rev up the app and click the stamp button. After collecting all the stamps and when you have internet, press submit button.


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COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #33 on: May 25, 2020, 03:37:17 pm »
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported, non group, cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.


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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #34 on: May 25, 2020, 03:56:09 pm »
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.

Audaxing is an outlier. A third of the population putting on half a stone is nothing to do with AUK stopping validating rides. Fewer than 10,000 individuals do a 200km+ ride in a normal year and the vast majority of those will be regular cyclists that will still be doing lots of cycling (which no-one is preventing them from doing).

I gave my opinion in the old thread as to why I think, right now, given the current guidelines/restrictions, Audaxing would not be a socially responsible thing to encourage. But that's just my personal opinion, however it seems to be similar to the view held by the AUK board hence their view that it they should withdraw validation.

You can make it about my personal opinion but I'm not the one setting AUK policy on this. Your beef seems to be with AUK not me. I accept that your opinion differs and I'm not making any attempt to change your mind as it doesn't really matter to me.

As a rough precis of my thoughts in the original thread:-
* Exercise is good and there are no limits on exercise[1]
* Audax is more than just exercise
* One of the primary items in the current guidance is "Stay at home as much as possible" and unnecessary things like Audax would fall under this (in my opinion)
* No-one could guarantee that all riders would be able to stick to social distancing and hygiene standards even if rides were limited to solo DIYs or Perms (every individual will think they can individually but AUK has to think of the average and worst cases)
* Given all of this (and probably some other stuff) AUK has decided that it should not be encouraging people to do unnecessary activities

1. Although I would guess that the "unlimited" part was to stop people getting all judgemental about others if there were limits (e.g. the fact that people believe that there was a "1 hour of exercise per day" limit with the original restrictions).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #35 on: May 25, 2020, 04:11:41 pm »
And one problem is some people need everything in life mapped out while others just go with the flow.

AUK doesn't have regulations such as "your bike must have efficient brakes" or "you must have working lights front and rear" it just says "you must comply with the Road Traffic Regs".   Same sort of thing.

It's for this reason that I think AUK should mainly let us get on with it - they've trusted us to not break the law for 40 years; why change that?

Because it's not about breaking the law. It's about not encouraging people to disregard certain aspects of social responsibility. (Right now, given the current restrictions/guidelines/etc because of the pandemic.)

And, again, no-one is stopping anyone riding their bike (although the Welsh and Scottish Governments are to some respect).
What socially irresponsible attitudes do you feel would be encouraged by organising socially distanced, self supported cycle rides entirely outdoors ?

A third of the the population has put put on half a stone each during lockdown. That is half a trillion calories unless I have mentally slipped a decimal point.

Audaxing is an outlier. A third of the population putting on half a stone is nothing to do with AUK stopping validating rides. Fewer than 10,000 individuals do a 200km+ ride in a normal year and the vast majority of those will be regular cyclists that will still be doing lots of cycling (which no-one is preventing them from doing).

I gave my opinion in the old thread as to why I think, right now, given the current guidelines/restrictions, Audaxing would not be a socially responsible thing to encourage. But that's just my personal opinion, however it seems to be similar to the view held by the AUK board hence their view that it they should withdraw validation.

You can make it about my personal opinion but I'm not the one setting AUK policy on this. Your beef seems to be with AUK not me. I accept that your opinion differs and I'm not making any attempt to change your mind as it doesn't really matter to me.

As a rough precis of my thoughts in the original thread:-
* Exercise is good and there are no limits on exercise[1]
* Audax is more than just exercise
* One of the primary items in the current guidance is "Stay at home as much as possible" and unnecessary things like Audax would fall under this (in my opinion)
* No-one could guarantee that all riders would be able to stick to social distancing and hygiene standards even if rides were limited to solo DIYs or Perms (every individual will think they can individually but AUK has to think of the average and worst cases)
* Given all of this (and probably some other stuff) AUK has decided that it should not be encouraging people to do unnecessary activities

1. Although I would guess that the "unlimited" part was to stop people getting all judgemental about others if there were limits (e.g. the fact that people believe that there was a "1 hour of exercise per day" limit with the original restrictions).
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.


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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2020, 04:50:18 pm »
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
  • Is it possible for a ride to be too long?
    • Reading Cycling Club
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2020, 05:07:55 pm »
I am stopping reading this thread. Having spent too much time with Lawers and Compliance officers I know enough to know this could be argued about for years with no firm conclusions.
Discussions will go along the following lines. Someone sets up a scinareo, it pushes against one of the rules, some people think this is reasonable and others do not. Repeat many times.
There will be no conclusion.
AUK should not get involved and wait for clarity in the rules from the goverment.
Trust the Committee.
BB

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Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2020, 05:37:50 pm »
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
I think it is very possible that it woukd, currently rrty is suspended with existing part complete efforts able to resume when validation is available.

Wete valudation to be available some members 10 or 11 months into a rrty effort in March will feel pressure to resume,  affirmative members in Scotland and Wales would not be able to,  this is less than ideal.

Additionally riders who normally only ride perms may increase the demands on diy organisers, who were already reporting significant increase in workload over previous years.

I would be interested to know,
1) is the board working on the assumption of a one nation approach,  where audax only resumes when it is possible in each of the 4 nations
2) is the board considering a return to poems before calendar events
3) is the a thought at what stage of the lockdown process audax might resume.  Obviously we cannot commit to dates as everything is moving,  but the government's have set out what the gradual steps will be described in various stages.
4) the original announcement gave a clear no rides until date x and we will review later, i think a statement after each review that all events up to date x are cancelled and this will be reviewed on date y would be helpful  not least because many people have entered events which are not yet officially cancelled,  but which look unlikely to go ahead,  but entrants essentially need to consider the event still live until told otherwise,  which then leads to training requirements
5) does the board have a view on compatability of single day rides (100/200/300) returning before multi days events (400+)

Eddington  96miles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2020, 05:50:02 pm »
Can you imagine the state of an event Finish controller being handed a steady stream of grubby brevet cards, ATM chits etc.  If all this accelerates a move towards paperless rides that will be one good thing to come out of it, I reckon.

That's easily sorted. No instant validations. The rider HAS TO enclose all the proof in a plastic sealed bag to be collected at the finish and post it in a shoe box. The organiser doesn't touch the content of the box for X days until it is safe to do so.


Yup, sounds good.
And of course coming up with ideas like this demonstrates why the board should be discussing this WITH MEMBERS!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2020, 06:24:26 pm »
Maybe the bit I don’t understand is how audax is more than just exercise. I appreciate a normal audax includes social gathering and coffee stops. I am suggesting removing those during times of covid leaving just the cycling and a gold star.

Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms? (I'm sure some AUK members are doing it anyway, without validation.)

If yes then you can see that that kind of Audax is more than just exercise, otherwise AUK offering validation would not affect the numbers of AUK members doing it.

If AUK wasn't "more then just exercise" then there wouldn't be any change, but there have been people on here saying they'd love to keep doing a 200 a month to keep their RTTY going but they aren't doing those types of rides because there's no validation and so little point (and they can maintain their fitness with more frequent shorter rides over a more local area).
I see audax as a way of encouraging exercise just like strava, park run, runbritainrankings or veloviewer. The fact you can persuade grown adults to cycle 100km, 200km or more for a rubber stamp is bizarre but true. I don’t see why getting a rubber stamp changes it from being allowed exercise to being an unnecessary irresponsible undertaking. I must admit I am new to this whole business, last year was my first full season - I did some SRs and am now hooked. I view it as a complex and bizarre version of strava.


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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2020, 06:44:35 pm »
Why is there all this talk of the 4 nations aligning,  the only events i have ever heard off/.

 read about in northern Ireland are under audax Ireland ( i could be wrong).

Secondly there are many members abroad. Who ride Auk perms regular in there own country!

All i can say is WHAT FUN :demon:

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2020, 07:05:08 pm »
Why is there all this talk of the 4 nations aligning,  the only events i have ever heard off/.

 read about in northern Ireland are under audax Ireland ( i could be wrong).

Secondly there are many members abroad. Who ride Auk perms regular in there own country!

Yes - can anyone confirm that the Risk Assessments of these rides are checked against all local regulations?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2020, 07:20:29 pm »
Do you think the number of AUK members doing 200km+ rides would go up if AUK offered validation for solo DIYs/Perms?
I feel a bit silly and childish about this but yes, DIY validation and SR award would nudge me on riding more than 200km. In the past month I did a few rides around 200km but can't bring myself to go further at the moment.

I'm fairly confident I could do a 400km relying on just the food and drink I bring. Besides, I'm in the Netherlands, and restrictions are a little relaxing here anyway.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #44 on: May 25, 2020, 07:22:50 pm »
I am stopping reading this thread. Having spent too much time with Lawers and Compliance officers I know enough to know this could be argued about for years with no firm conclusions.
Discussions will go along the following lines. Someone sets up a scinareo, it pushes against one of the rules, some people think this is reasonable and others do not. Repeat many times.
There will be no conclusion.
AUK should not get involved and wait for clarity in the rules from the goverment.
Trust the Committee.
BB

Sent from my H8216 using Tapatalk


Me too. 

The zombie thead was mercifully deleted. 

Now we have this one

Its "the jobby that wouldnt flush away". 

 

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2020, 07:37:15 pm »
I know I'm a girl but I don't see how anyone can ride a 4001 without needing a toilet stop.

Toilet stops mean touching surfaces and possibly disseminating the virus. Hand-washing facilities are often poor, whatever your intentions.

1) Even 100 km without a loo is a challenge to many.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2020, 08:22:27 pm »
A cloverleaf route DIY returning to home addresses a lot of people’s concerns regarding transmission.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2020, 08:36:11 pm »
A cloverleaf route DIY returning to home addresses a lot of people’s concerns regarding transmission.

Sounds great. Not everyone lives in the same place as you. How many leaves has your clover?

Unfortunately what seems to be happening here (again) is that a few are trying to skew for the many. The many are accepting the situation, accepting what the board has said.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2020, 09:00:55 pm »
Well said jaded!  Just a case of waiting cycling is still allowed so as i see it no problem.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2020, 09:12:09 pm »
And how do you address the possibility that this virus may remain an issue for months or years? I see that some relaxation of restrictions is progressively occurring, allowing other activities to be reintroduced. Is audax likely to be progressively restarted or ‘all or nothing’?

All I’m asking for is an indication of AUK’s likely future direction. Even Randonneurs USA has managed that much.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...