Author Topic: COVID19 and Audax UK  (Read 72907 times)

COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #250 on: June 23, 2020, 07:45:55 pm »
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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Bianchi Boy

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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #251 on: June 23, 2020, 08:40:25 pm »
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Tomsk

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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #252 on: June 23, 2020, 08:48:14 pm »
"When circumstances change, I change my decision."
I hope that the Audax UK board will revise forwards (to 18 July) the resumption date for encouraging and validating rides, given the revision to the guidelines in England announced just now (Tuesday 23 June). We can surely rely on the prudence and self-discipline of riders to minimise the risk to themselves and others. Any risk to the reputation of Audax UK and to cycling in general is surely illusory.
The various home nations will be most likely to make similar judgements and take similar decisions in the next fortnight so the argument that Audax UK has to wait, wait, wait for all home nations to align before resuming is surely weakened. Of course local laws and guidelines varied with time/date would remain to be adhered to.
Individuals will have different approaches to the minimal risk that outdoor activity - specifically long distance cycling - incurs (to themselves and others). And they will choose to ride: at all, short distances, long (day) distances, alone, in pairs, in groups of 'x' - or not: individual decision.
Given Audax UK's objective of encouraging long distance riding, it does not need to apply additional, cautious restrictions on such activity.

I understand the AUK Board's decision to take a whole UK approach, given that Scotland and Wales are taking their time in lockdown easing [with justification I'm sure], but a tad frustrating for us in England. However, I can wait until 1st August for perms to start and will take the opportunity of overnight stays for a little touring in July. If there are local Covid-19 outbreaks later in the year then they'll maybe have to suspend Audax events on a case-by-case basis?

Tentative plans for some multi-day DIY 200s going a Long Way, too ... My scuppered 2020 plans were for Andy C's LEJOG, my own ACME Grand [as a route check/helpers' ride] and possibly the East-West, Lowestoft-Ardnamurchan perm too. There's a whole world of choice there!

3peaker

  • RRTY Mad 33 up
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #253 on: June 23, 2020, 09:17:35 pm »
My plans for a double E-E have been scuppered by the 1 Aug announcement. So, it will be a 4 Corners tour, entering Scotland when the border opens for tourists, with a couple DIY 200s in the South just to remind me what event pressure is all about.
SteveP

Promoting : Cheltenham Flyer 200, Cider with Rosie 150, Character Coln 100 21 Mar 20. (Suspended 16 Mar 20 on AUK advice)

frankly frankie

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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #254 on: June 23, 2020, 11:28:27 pm »
If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.

When I rode LeJoG in 4 days (96h) the hotel at JoG was most unwelcoming (with good reason I'm sure) so I rode straight back to Wick Polis Station where they made me a Full Scottish Breakfast  :thumbsup:
Those were the days.
you only live but once, and when you're dead you're done, so let the good times roll

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #255 on: June 24, 2020, 05:35:49 am »
Hotels seem fine, even the Scottish ones are taking bookings. They are all offering free date change even on the £29 a night rate so if things need to get postponed I can.

Edit: though I now realise registering 7x200 in 5 days won’t work as the sleeping comes in chunks.


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If the 5 days refers to the Audax standard for LeJoG you need 4 nights for the journey and somewhere at the end. Probably Sea View Hotel. Then decide if you want to cycle back to Inverness or catch the train.
I have booked 4 nights en route. My accommodation at the end is back in Wick. As I am going when I would have been doing Andy’s one it is too early for registering any of it.


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marcusjb

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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #256 on: June 29, 2020, 07:23:40 am »
RUSA resumption postponed. :(

https://rusa.org/node/558

Whilst the US is on a very different trajectory, AUK’s decision to not rush things may hopefully avoid this situation here and shorter DIYs and perms can resume as planned.
Right! What's next?

Ooooh. That sounds like a daft idea.  I am in!

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #257 on: June 29, 2020, 09:38:30 am »
Thing is, Marcus, RUSA were planning to allow calendar events up to 200 to go ahead, if the organiser chose, from 1 July. Noone here has suggested that that would be a prudent way ahead in the circumstances prevailing in UK.
Audax UK have decided that solo/very small group permanents can be sanctioned. The additional risk of such rides, compared to unsanctioned individual or group (<7) rides is nil. And the risk during such outdoor exercise (of increased infection) already very small, is vanishingly small compared to risks incurred during the many other activities millions of entirely sensible cautious UK citizens are engaged in.
I believe that what the long distance cycling community want to see is a vision (Audax UK's vision) for how calendar events can be resumed (if organisers want to) and a tentative, prudent date that they hope that circumstances (in various spectra) will allow that resumption.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #258 on: June 29, 2020, 01:01:48 pm »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #259 on: June 29, 2020, 01:20:28 pm »
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #260 on: June 29, 2020, 02:41:12 pm »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB
I appreciate you keep saying something similar and I keep repeating my response, if the issue is the sign on or finishing in a village hall afterwards, which is currently illegal, then organise the event without this. If it is impossible to have online or outdoor sign in then cancel that event, not all events. This is the approach in NL. This is all irrelevant as auk have decided no calendar events for the time being.


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Bianchi Boy

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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #261 on: June 29, 2020, 06:36:32 pm »
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Kyle Bridge not too far away  :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?

BB
Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #262 on: June 29, 2020, 08:43:33 pm »

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #263 on: June 29, 2020, 10:54:53 pm »
Well this buggers up one of my DIY ideas
https://twitter.com/FerrytoSkye/status/1277563163504979970

Note the response from the local tourist castle...
Their facebook post responses has further subtext to their decision.

But then it sounds like my trip to the Ratagan YH won't be taking place anyway.
Kyle Bridge not too far away  :thumbsup:The difference is just the difference between the Shiel Bridge split?

BB

Considerably less climbing and considerably more motor vehicles on the A87 route.

Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.

Bianchi Boy

  • Cycling is my doctor
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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #264 on: June 30, 2020, 06:07:30 am »
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.

I assume you mean Skye not SKAT? Do you have a source for the "tourists kept out" position?

Hostels look like they are booking only private rooms and no shared accommodation.

 :'(

Set a fire for a man and he will be warm for a day, set a man on fire and he is warm for the rest of his life.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #265 on: June 30, 2020, 11:33:48 am »
Also SKAT have reversed their position and now want tourists kept out at all costs.

I assume you mean Skye not SKAT? Do you have a source for the "tourists kept out" position?

Hostels look like they are booking only private rooms and no shared accommodation.

 :'(

SKAT
Skye and Kyle Against Tolls.

1/3rd of businesses polled in the western isles say they won't be reopening this year becasue they don't want to be responsible for bringing death to the islands; seems could be similar in Skye and Lochaber.

Ratagan probably won't be going ahead for the the club anyway, without self-catering and car sharing it's just not possible.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #266 on: June 30, 2020, 05:51:10 pm »
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095

For the fragility of the current situation and how much on a knife edge we are.

So for an organised ride we will organise for people to travel  across the country (and increase their contacts) and sign on in a hall (and increase the contacts) then control in various locations (if not changed these will be local shops as cafes not open, and increase their contacts), then return to the hall and have more contact.

I am not happy about the situation, but we are in no position to sanction oreganised events.

BB

In the Netherlands, audax will resume in July. We have altered the rules of conduct to make sure that we don't huddle together at start and finish (outside, collect card and go; plus no socializing at the finish). The controls are up to the rider. It could be a photo control or a receipt at a petrol station. We will be very flexible as long as the riders disperse as much as possible at controls. As an organizer, I'm fine with this. I don't think cycling in small groups or travel to the start currently is a risky activity.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #267 on: July 18, 2020, 04:00:03 pm »
In grappling with the challenge of resuming cycling randonneuring UK-wide, how about these lines of WS Gilbert (as in Gilbert and Sullivan) which apparently Harold McMillan had hanging in 10 Downing Street:

"In a contemplative fashion,
And a tranquil frame of mind,
Free from every kind of passion,
Some solution let us find.
Let us grasp the situation,
Solve the complicated plot —
Quiet, calm deliberation
Disentangles every knot.
"

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #268 on: July 28, 2020, 02:59:01 pm »
Finding a solution is between the cycling MGBs and the government's.

AUK is not an NGB so stuck with what British cycling agree with the 7 government's of their patch. (Jersey, Guernsey and Manx are the other 3)

Audax isn't it seems even vaguely on British cycling's radar and ultimately they're the NGB the government's will decide on specific divergences with.
If theres no specific divergence then each country's rules have to be met in a manner that keeps the insurance provider happy.

The insurance companies are only too happy to invalidate policies if there's a breech of guidelines and/or law.

So we're stuck with no more than the permitted group size doing any one event at any one time.
Other forms of cycling and other sports find it possible to work with those limitations but it's far from ideal for long distance cycling, highlights Auks need to be recognised for lobbying with the govs (I. E.  Be the NGB)

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mattc

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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #269 on: July 30, 2020, 07:33:04 pm »
...

So we're stuck with no more than the permitted group size doing any one event at any one time.
Other forms of cycling and other sports find it possible to work with those limitations but it's far from ideal for long distance cycling, highlights Auks need to be recognised for lobbying with the govs (I. E.  Be the NGB)

I don't think I understand your reasoning here (but we could well be at cross-porpoises);

CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?

[I'm not deliberately ignoring Scotland/Wales/etc - I just don't know the regs very well, so don't presume to leap to conclusions!]
Has never ridden RAAM
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FifeingEejit

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Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #270 on: July 30, 2020, 09:21:48 pm »
CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?

Because CTT are capable of knowing where 7 riders are at a time, AUK aren't.

Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #271 on: July 30, 2020, 09:51:30 pm »
CTT are running 90-rider events. Audax perms don't require riders to exceed the 6-person limit.
So why can't (for example) 7 riders do the same perm on the same day in Englandshire?

Because if you limit them to six people you don't have to think about whether they'll end up riding together or not.

Where CTT have already done that thinking and drafted rules for how people will stay apart. AUK are only just starting to maybe think about thinking about it. That's the complaint you should be making.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #272 on: July 30, 2020, 09:58:47 pm »
AUK don’t need to make an additional rule. It is illegal and that is enough. AUK can already refuse to validate brevets that are ridden illegally.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #273 on: July 31, 2020, 12:34:25 am »



AUK don’t need to make an additional rule. It is illegal and that is enough. AUK can already refuse to validate brevets that are ridden illegally.

The problem there is disproving it when the insurance come calling say:

10 riders arrive at a cafe together in North Berwick, 5 provide a receipt from the Café till after placing their order, the other 5 got to the cash machine round the corner after eating.
5 miles down the road 2 riders clatter in a heap on the road and the police and insurance company gets involved
In that scenario the insurance was invalid and they broke the law, no pay out and potential immediate cancellation of AUKs insurance with all that entails.
If they hadn't crashed AUK would have been none the wiser.

10 riders arrive in North Berwick, 5 in 1 group, 5 in the other, the first 5 go to a café, the other 5 got to the cash machine round the corner.
5 miles down the road group B overtakes group A, two riders get tangled up and the police and insurance company get involved.
1) Prove to the police this isn't an oversized group based around a single event (after all, they're all carrying the same brevet card)
2) Prove to the insurance company they wern't riding in an oversized group based around a single event and therefore that the policy was valid and shouldn't be summarily terminated.
The only thing protecting AUK from that happening is limiting daily entries to the maximum group size



It's also easy to say all the riders would submit their GPS trace to the police and insurance company to prove it was situation 2 not situation 1; aye a mate did that after being shoved off his bike by a reprobate on a scrambler.
The polis weren't interested, so unless you're going to contest the fine to the Sheriff and take the insurance company to court over the annulments, both of which will cost you more than the fine itself it's really not worth the effort.


CTT events can confirm which entrants were on course in their entered capacity because there's a time keeper, at the start/finish line taking notes and can kick them out the event for any transgression of the rules, because the whole event is observable.

Every sport is having to work out how to adapt to fit the current restrictions and insurance climate; some are easier to adapt than others.
And the more "free" the sport is in what entrants do, the harder it will be to adapt because the organizer has less control of the entrants actions.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: COVID19 and Audax UK
« Reply #274 on: July 31, 2020, 06:22:23 am »
So AUK will be introducing pre-brevet inspections to check that the riders’ machines comply with the legal requirements for riding on the public highway? No, because that issue is the rider’s individual responsibility, along with the insurance implications of breaking the law.

When you say two riders fall, are you referring to two riders in the same group or two riders from different groups? You have not made that clear in your example.

Groups would have staggered starts. Interactions between groups on the road would accordingly be limited, both because excessively large groups would be illegal and because, if seen by other brevet riders, they would be DQed.

AUK already uses the testimony of fellow riders e.g. to clarify that riders in fact were at controls when other evidence is missing. In the current circumstances, if riders report that an excessively large group was riding together, that group would be DQed.

How is that different to a time trial? If you are saying the route marshals are additional eyes checking for infringements during the TT, you are simply requiring a manned control or perhaps secret control for calendar brevets.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...