Author Topic: New gps  (Read 1692 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: New gps
« Reply #25 on: June 22, 2020, 01:02:42 pm »
The IP rating of a phone for cycling use is a bit of a red herring.   My experience is that a plastic bag does the job perfectly well, including charging if needed.

I tried that once in the rain, and the screen was completely unreadable. (Moto G6 Plus)

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: New gps
« Reply #26 on: June 22, 2020, 01:40:54 pm »
If you have a smartphone you already have one.  If you don't then a low cost smartphone with a big battery and gps is a much better investment than a cycling specific gps.  Its not compulsory to put a sim in a smartphone.  You **CAN** just use it as a small mobile computer.  No one will complain.  And you get much much much better bang for your buck.

I'd question this if you ever ride in the rain... Or in really bright sunlight... Or want to use some sensors...

J

Good questions: sensors is a non-issue as most phones do bluetooth and some do Ant+.  Also many are waterproof.  Sun is more of an issue: phones can be made readable at high brightness, but battery life comes down.

Re: New gps
« Reply #27 on: June 22, 2020, 02:17:37 pm »
Right now in Hertfordshire it's bright and sunny. I can barely see my phone screen even stood in the shade, so trying to navigate on an Audax or other would be challenging. I expect a bike GPS  may be designed to be a bit better in sunny conditions. Also, can third party gpx routes be loaded onto a smartphone like a cycle GPS? I did say iwasnt very technical

Re: New gps
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2020, 02:40:32 pm »
Quote
I tried that once in the rain, and the screen was completely unreadable. (Moto G6 Plus)
.  The main thing is to ensure that the plastic bag is taut across the screen and that you can, if needed, disable touch input on the screen.  Unfortunately plastic bags are quite reflective so you may need to stop and shade the phone to be able to check the map if the phone is angled inappropriately.


Well, I never claimed it was a good experience :-D .  My experience of using smart phones to navigate Audax have convinced me of a number of things.


1.  Fit a matt/non reflective screen saver to your phone.  It reduces the issues with bight sunlight/reflections quite well.


2.  A decent holder is required.  I've now settled on this type


https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Aluminum-Universal-Mobile-Phone-Holder-for-Mountain-Bike-Motorbike-Bicycle-Mount/383517455527?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=651910065770&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


which is very secure for the phone, allows relatively quick removal of the phone, allows easy installation of a Mk1 plastic bag and more importantly, doesn't interfere with charging ports.


3. A battery pack which allows replaceable batteries (typically 16850 lithium batteries).  I use this type


https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B07N886MCB?tag=duc08-21&linkCode=osi&th=1&psc=1


which also allows me to power one of my night riding lights (the second uses AA batteries).  The quality can be quite variable so you might need to try a couple before you find one which works well for you.  The battery pack sits in a Top Tube Topeak Triathlon bag.




All in all, once you have worked out the various wrinkles, I've found that navigating and bike stats by smart phone is a much superior experience to my previous bike specific gps units (Garmin 305 (wore out), 605 (stolen)  and Bryton 50 (gave up in frustration)).

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: New gps
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2020, 02:46:49 pm »
Right now in Hertfordshire it's bright and sunny. I can barely see my phone screen even stood in the shade, so trying to navigate on an Audax or other would be challenging. I expect a bike GPS  may be designed to be a bit better in sunny conditions. Also, can third party gpx routes be loaded onto a smartphone like a cycle GPS? I did say iwasnt very technical

Yes they can.

If you want a one stop shop, you're probably beat sticking with one of the purpose-designed solutions though.  Some people here can't resist nerding out over how to bodge something together, but that wasn't the question you asked so it's best to ignore them.

Re: New gps
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2020, 02:56:03 pm »
Right now in Hertfordshire it's bright and sunny. I can barely see my phone screen even stood in the shade, so trying to navigate on an Audax or other would be challenging. I expect a bike GPS  may be designed to be a bit better in sunny conditions. Also, can third party gpx routes be loaded onto a smartphone like a cycle GPS? I did say iwasnt very technical

GPS screens are better in bright sun - no denying that - but phone screens are readable if you whack the brightness right up. 

It's no harder to get a GPS track on a phone than it is on a navigation device.

However, if you want the simplest option, Wahoo is probably the thing to go for - as long as you are happy with not having north at the top when you are following a route.  That was a showstopper for me, but many people are ok with it.

Re: New gps
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2020, 04:43:42 pm »
,, A mine of information, and collectively you've really helped me. I'm the complete opposite of a nerd. On this forum there are clearly some very capable people re tech. I'll take Karla advice and get a dedicated unit. I'm "reviewed out". Looks as though Garmin 530 offers a lot for£230.its not even the money. It's the user friendliness. I can't help but think if phones were the solution, Garmin, Lezyne, Wahoo et Al. would be out of business. My son uses his phone to navigate from London to North Herts and its all seamless to him. I bought a Garmin Touring in 2013, cycled to London via River Lea towpath. On way back I went more direct route through Barnet and used compass just headed approximately north, not that I was lost. At risk of repeating myself, all the performance data I don't need. I'm really hoping to do LEL next year and didn't want to rely on others. I have followed similar thread on yacf re phones and navigation and was baffled.
Many thanks, hopefully I'll catch up on the road.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: New gps
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2020, 05:06:23 pm »
However, if you want the simplest option, Wahoo is probably the thing to go for - as long as you are happy with not having north at the top when you are following a route.  That was a showstopper for me, but many people are ok with it.
A comment rather than a piece of advice, I used to have my GPS north-up but found after a while that it was easier to follow, for me, in forwards-up orientation. Then the shape of the line on the screen was the same as the shape of the road ahead of me and I no longer had to perform rotations in my mind, remembering what direction I was heading in. Though that might have been easier if the North arrow on the screen was somewhat more obvious.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: New gps
« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2020, 05:18:52 pm »
Quote
I tried that once in the rain, and the screen was completely unreadable. (Moto G6 Plus)
.  The main thing is to ensure that the plastic bag is taut across the screen and that you can, if needed, disable touch input on the screen.  Unfortunately plastic bags are quite reflective so you may need to stop and shade the phone to be able to check the map if the phone is angled inappropriately.

That makes it a total and complete non-starter. I've never needed to do such things on my Wahoo, even in the bright midday sun.

The plug and play simplicity of it just cannot be beaten.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: New gps
« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2020, 05:29:33 pm »
I have to say that I am very very impressed with the clarity of the display on Mrs h's new Wahoo Roam, in bright bright sunshine and in the shade of the trees (haven't given it a night outing as yet). And with the simplicity of setting it up and loading a track onto it.
Rust never sleeps

Re: New gps
« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2020, 05:35:54 pm »
I hanker after something with the readability of e ink in bright sunshine. Sadly nothing ready made out there that I could find. You can get e ink shelf edge labels (About £20) in various sizes that can be updated by Bluetooth. But then you’d need a custom app on a phone to send it turn instructions based on its GPS.

Re: New gps
« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2020, 05:43:23 pm »
The Wahoo Elemnt has an e-ink display.

Re: New gps
« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2020, 05:49:00 pm »
The Wahoo Elemnt has an e-ink display.

Oh does it?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: New gps
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2020, 05:53:22 pm »
The Wahoo Elemnt has an e-ink display.

Does it? Really? I thought it was just a standard LCD...

It doesn't perform even close to a how I'm used to e-ink performing. Does match what I expect from LCD tho...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: New gps
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2020, 06:01:27 pm »
. I can't help but think if phones were the solution, Garmin, Lezyne, Wahoo et Al. would be out of business.

Like Polaroid, Kodak, etc?
What saves them, so far, is that it's a fairly small market: compared to a camera, not that many people want bike navigation.  But I wouldn't bet on them having a long term future.
Hammerhead, a new competitor, is an android device. If it is successful, the proprietary systems of garmin etc might look increasingly clunky and not able to match the pace of innovation of phones.

Re: New gps
« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2020, 06:05:16 pm »
The Wahoo Elemnt has an e-ink display.

Does it? Really? I thought it was just a standard LCD...

It doesn't perform even close to a how I'm used to e-ink performing. Does match what I expect from LCD tho...

J

Ah there’s that thought dashed. If it truly was eink that’d be a reason to change.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: New gps
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2020, 06:08:10 pm »

Ah there’s that thought dashed. If it truly was eink that’d be a reason to change.

Why? E-ink would mean blanking the whole screen each time it refreshes. That's gonna really annoy...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: New gps
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2020, 06:09:34 pm »
However, if you want the simplest option, Wahoo is probably the thing to go for - as long as you are happy with not having north at the top when you are following a route.  That was a showstopper for me, but many people are ok with it.
A comment rather than a piece of advice, I used to have my GPS north-up but found after a while that it was easier to follow, for me, in forwards-up orientation. Then the shape of the line on the screen was the same as the shape of the road ahead of me and I no longer had to perform rotations in my mind, remembering what direction I was heading in. Though that might have been easier if the North arrow on the screen was somewhat more obvious.

That's my point; lots of people are fine with direction of travel at the top, like a car satnav. It makes it easier to turn the right way, esp when heading south, at the cost of having a less clear view of where you are and which direction you are heading in.
I know two people who, on ultracycling events, have gone the wrong direction after a stop, back the way they came, for several hours. I don't know how they have their systems set up but can't imagine that type of major error could occur with North at the top!

Re: New gps
« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2020, 06:10:15 pm »

Ah there’s that thought dashed. If it truly was eink that’d be a reason to change.

Why? E-ink would mean blanking the whole screen each time it refreshes. That's gonna really annoy...

J

You haven’t been keeping up with e ink development. Partial refresh can be done now. There are eink monitors now that can do HD  video at 40 FPS. No whole screen blanking necessary.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: New gps
« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2020, 06:11:44 pm »
edge 130 (and now 130 plus) have super clear and readable screen, shame that the unit has major shortcomings, therefore can't recommend it (i've learned to live with it..).

Re: New gps
« Reply #45 on: June 22, 2020, 06:22:06 pm »
edge 130 (and now 130 plus) have super clear and readable screen, shame that the unit has major shortcomings, therefore can't recommend it (i've learned to live with it..).

I know it’s an aside, but what are the shortcomings?

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: New gps
« Reply #46 on: June 22, 2020, 07:03:34 pm »
edge 130 (and now 130 plus) have super clear and readable screen, shame that the unit has major shortcomings, therefore can't recommend it (i've learned to live with it..).

I know it’s an aside, but what are the shortcomings?

there are a lot (i'm on a third replacement unit btw) if i was being picky, but the main ones are:
* tiny tiny battery, so the unit may last as little as one hour - with the healthy battery - wtf.. in typical use it lasts 6-8hrs
* downsampling of courses (longer than 100km courses can be tricky to follow)
* courses that go over itself need to be divided into several, as turn-by-turn doesn't always work
* small internal storage (10-12 courses)
* unreliable altimeter - you must know the altitude you are at and reset it before each ride otherwise the readings will be wildly inaccurate
* slow bluetooth sync with the phone
* ...

as said before i've learned the workarounds and it serves my requirement to have the smallest computer between my arms on tribars, i wouldn't mind it being even smaller, but taller to allow for a larger battery.

Re: New gps
« Reply #47 on: June 22, 2020, 07:16:09 pm »
The other thing to consider is after sales service or support:

Garmin suck.

Wahoo are undeniably one of the best companies out there.

IMHO and experience.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: New gps
« Reply #48 on: June 22, 2020, 08:05:47 pm »
However, if you want the simplest option, Wahoo is probably the thing to go for - as long as you are happy with not having north at the top when you are following a route.  That was a showstopper for me, but many people are ok with it.
A comment rather than a piece of advice, I used to have my GPS north-up but found after a while that it was easier to follow, for me, in forwards-up orientation. Then the shape of the line on the screen was the same as the shape of the road ahead of me and I no longer had to perform rotations in my mind, remembering what direction I was heading in. Though that might have been easier if the North arrow on the screen was somewhat more obvious.

That's my point; lots of people are fine with direction of travel at the top, like a car satnav. It makes it easier to turn the right way, esp when heading south, at the cost of having a less clear view of where you are and which direction you are heading in.
I know two people who, on ultracycling events, have gone the wrong direction after a stop, back the way they came, for several hours. I don't know how they have their systems set up but can't imagine that type of major error could occur with North at the top!
It's the same point but opposite! I would be far more likely to make that mistake with north up – unless I was heading more or less north at the time, in which it makes no difference, obviously. I ought to notice fairly soon, as my pointer would no longer be on the pink line, but still it can be annoying to have to turn round. More importantly though, 1) different orientations are easier for different people, 2) this is all an aside to the OP.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: New gps
« Reply #49 on: June 22, 2020, 09:32:29 pm »
The Wahoo Elemnt has an e-ink display.

Does it? Really?

Doesn’t it? Or something close to it? Perhaps you are right. Anyway, I find it to be good in bright sunlight.