Author Topic: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.  (Read 2249 times)

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2020, 05:21:38 pm »
That will require networks that aren’t broken up at crucial big and scary junctions.

This is the biggest issue with the permanent cycle infra between Leeds and Bradford, it's acceptable for long stretches, even good at some points but it's confusing and somewhat dangerous at some points when it reaches huge motorway junctions and does the classic "END" when it reaches bits of road where it's too narrow or otherwise inconvenient for it to continue, which is fine for an experienced cyclist but might be off putting for someone using it for the first time.

I'm not sure how much use it gets, I used it for the second time on Saturday in less than ideal weather conditions.
I tried it, once, in 2018. Lots of dodging parked cars as I recall. Also, good job I was going for the A65 up t'Horsforth first time I met the Armley gyratory, had I been heading for the city centre, I think I might have followed the green background sign thereto onto the A58(M)...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2020, 04:04:54 pm »
Good new for Brummies - they've launched an 'engagement platform'!

https://twitter.com/bhamconnected/status/1283033507783217157

(Keen-eyed readers will note the similarity to WidenMyPath, only without any of the contributed data...   :facepalm:)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

fd3

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2020, 07:07:20 pm »
My first thought was that this, like the bike vouchers, if far too late.  Then I remembered the second wave due for September and the third for December - maybe the lanes and bikes will be ready for those?
[/I could be wrong]

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2020, 07:40:13 pm »
I was coming along the Euston Rd at 3pm on Monday (usually relatively quiet) and saw a massive tail-back starting the far side of the underpass all the way to Kings Cross.  As I use the underpass this meant having to manoeuvre between the stationary traffic until I reached the far side.  Far from being a serious accident or major roadworks, to my surprise I saw the cause was a newly-installed pop-up bike lane in between the bus lane and the (what used to be 2lane but now single-lane) carriageway.

I have mixed feelings about this.  On that particular occasion it slowed me down (the underpass bit anyway). I normally feel pretty safe in the bus lane, and it did seem to be causing huge congestion (with the associated fumes presumably) for pretty minimal benefit.

If the idea is to piss off road users to the extent that they give up driving, that's certainly one way to do it, but I suspect they will adapt and find other ways around that part of town.  We'll see.

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2020, 07:54:34 pm »
huge congestion (with the associated fumes presumably)

Congestion and fumes are *always* caused by too many people driving.

That said, the Euston Road cycle lane exists for no other reason than that the mayor put out a press release promising it a month ago, apparently with no particular plan how to implement it. I very much wish it was part of a coherent plan for a London emergency cycle network, but I'm not convinced.

It doesn't help that TfL have had to furlough 90% of their staff so the design and comms are distinctly sub par.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2020, 07:59:18 pm »
Euston Road seems like an eminently sensible place for a cycle route: It's a key route, linking mainline stations (some of which are annoying by tube), and horrendous to cycle if you're neither fast enough to keep up with traffic, nor enthusiastic about filtering or being sqeezed by taxis.

The motor traffic will evaporate, it just takes a few weeks.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2020, 08:00:05 pm »
Congestion and fumes are *always* caused by too many people driving.

Indeed.  But presumably slow-moving or stationary traffic creates more of a problem than the same density of (relatively) free-flowing?

As it is, I seem to recall that this is already the worst road in the UK for air pollution.  ::-)

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2020, 08:01:37 pm »
Euston Road seems like an eminently sensible place for a cycle route: It's a key route, linking mainline stations (some of which are annoying by tube), and horrendous to cycle if you're neither fast enough to keep up with traffic, nor enthusiastic about filtering or being sqeezed by taxis.

There are wide bus lanes both directions.  In all my years of cycling this road I've never felt in danger.  I can think of many, many roads far more in need of segregation.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2020, 08:05:15 pm »
Euston Road seems like an eminently sensible place for a cycle route: It's a key route, linking mainline stations (some of which are annoying by tube), and horrendous to cycle if you're neither fast enough to keep up with traffic, nor enthusiastic about filtering or being sqeezed by taxis.

There are wide bus lanes both directions.  In all my years of cycling this road I've never felt in danger.

I've rarely felt in danger[1], but that's because I'm  a) fast enough to keep up with traffic in the underpass  b) used to Birmingham drivers, so London is tame by comparison.  It is however unpleasant, and (particularly in the Kings Cross area) slow to make progress without filtering because of all the cars in the way.

It's not about us.


[1] Usually when merging left after coming through the underpass, with traffic approaching at speed in my blind spot.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2020, 08:14:54 pm »
I've rarely felt in danger[1], but that's because I'm  a) fast enough to keep up with traffic in the underpass  b) used to Birmingham drivers, so London is tame by comparison.  It is however unpleasant, and (particularly in the Kings Cross area) slow to make progress without filtering because of all the cars in the way.

It's not about us.


[1] Usually when merging left after coming through the underpass, with traffic approaching at speed in my blind spot.

Indeed, understood.  High volume traffic can be intimidating even when the relative risk is low.  I'm not sure that the pop-up lane here will help much with that though.  The relative benefit seems to be outweighed by the general chaos resulting.  You'd really have to see it in action to get a fair impression.

The underpass can be avoided but it means another set of lights - that route was clogged too  ;)

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2020, 08:18:25 pm »
Yeah, Euston Road is fine if you're a fit and fast cyclist, and happy to play with the buses or taxis and brave cars as they do the New York zoom between the lights. I think the average person would take one look and think not a chance. That said, you see the occasional bunch of tourists on Santander Bikes. Come to London, breath the fumes, taste the mortality.

Congestion is probably the best way to get rid of traffic and force people and businesses to think critically about their journeys, so I encourage it.
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Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #36 on: July 15, 2020, 08:22:02 pm »
You'd really have to see it in action to get a fair impression.

Fortunately someone has done this for you:
https://twitter.com/grahamparks/status/1281988035773698056

(it's meant to be extended a bit at both ends, and a similar lane put in the other way)

Indeed.  But presumably slow-moving or stationary traffic creates more of a problem than the same density of (relatively) free-flowing?

Trying to reduce pollution by ensuring traffic is free-flowing is rarely a winning strategy.

(I'd like to see numbers for whether the same volume of cars crawling past a point vs moving freely actually outputs more pollution)

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #37 on: July 15, 2020, 08:24:37 pm »
You'd really have to see it in action to get a fair impression.

Fortunately someone has done this for you:
https://twitter.com/grahamparks/status/1281988035773698056


 ;D

As I say, I'm undecided.  It may grow on me.

fd3

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #38 on: July 15, 2020, 11:42:23 pm »
I'm not sure that the pop-up lane here will help much with that though.  The relative benefit seems to be outweighed by the general chaos resulting.
The only way you will reduce car traffic is if you make it really shitty and hard to do.
In Paris they closed roads and turned them into pedestrian zones, we're talking major arteries into the city.  If you want people on bikes and out of cars this is the sort of chaos you need to create.
Or you pay the price.
[/I could be wrong]

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2020, 09:43:09 am »
It's the same rule as physically blocking bad parking, the only solution to traffic is to make it physically difficult. Yeah, blah blah deliveries, blah blah taxis. Deliveries could be more efficient and do we need thousands of empty taxis cruising around. Probably not. Euston Road is a horrid multi-lane, fume-filled corridor.

Our little commuter town is consulting (again, I think it's a perpetual consultation) and the 'conceptualization' of the revitalized high street still features cars (plus wide pavements and cyclists, and happy people, doing happy things that don't feature wandering by vacant shops). Just bite the bullet and close it to cars.
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Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2020, 08:26:50 pm »
Extinction Rebellion activist warns Euston Road cycle lane jams will add to pollution
Just because they are members of Extinction Rebellion doesn’t mean that they aren’t as car dependent as much of the rest of society though.

In other news there were very narrow coned cycle lanes installed on the A6 in Lancaster, I guess they would have been comfortably in the “bad” category. The local Green Party was the first to oppose them because they (should have) prevented residents from loading and unloading right outside their houses (people just ripped the cones out if they wanted to for access though). The coned lane on one side was replaced by an even narrower advisory lane that must surely put it comfortably in the “ugly” category. I suppose it remains to be seen whether levels of cycling are affected.

I am often asked, what does YOAV stand for? It stands for Yoav On A Velo

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2020, 05:14:01 pm »
Used a pop-up covid lane today for the first time. Actually two of them. One has been in since Saturday and works quite well – whole lane wide, decent length, connects to places at one end; but the other end leaves you at a busy roundabout with lights, where you either try to insert yourself into the stream of traffic entering the roundabout or wait for the lights to change and go round a sort of inner circle. I normally ride round the roundabout traffic-wise but used the inner circle today just for experimentation. It works but takes a bit longer. That's Lewins Mead to the Bear Pit if anyone in Bristol is reading.

The other is on the Triangle and is too narrow and ends just you might want something to help you get in lane for the Y-shaped junction. Useless.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2020, 08:52:28 pm »
Things are afoot on Silly Oak high street.

So far, a liberal distribution of cones has snarled up the can't-be-arsed-to-use-the-bypass traffic, while an assortment of men in orange hi-vis have converted a 2 metre section of double yellow line into single yellow line by the innovative method of removing a yellow-line-sized strip of road surface with an angle grinder.  They've also done something confusing with kerbstones in the road in front of the bus stop outside Touch Base Pears.

I'm sure this would all make sense if I looked at the plans more carefully, but I think the entertainment value is higher if I dont.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2020, 10:34:44 am »
Digging up the top layer of road surface seems to be the standard way of removing road lines now. I guess they decided that burning them off releases too many toxic fumes and grinding them off is too dusty (and probably too slow).
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2020, 01:37:57 pm »
Digging up the top layer of road surface seems to be the standard way of removing road lines now. I guess they decided that burning them off releases too many toxic fumes and grinding them off is too dusty (and probably too slow).

You can blast them off with high-pressure water, which is quick and non-messy (though I'm not sure it does the road surface any favours with regard to long-term weathering):




Having studied the plans, it appears that they intend to install a temporary asphalt ramp between the pavement and a new wand-segregated cycle lane at that position.  Presumably digging out a strip gives it something to stick to.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2020, 02:28:15 pm »
Haven't seen that method. Dig and relay seems to be the preferred method of contractors here when making numerous tweaks to RPZ layout.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #47 on: August 07, 2020, 10:47:07 am »
Or you could do what Wandsworth council did on Tooting Bec and grind them off really badly, leaving dangerous ruts and grooves all over the path that grab at your bike when you cross them.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Pop-up cycle lanes, the good, the bad, and the ugly.
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2020, 11:39:18 am »
I've properly studied the A38 plans.  Silly Oak high street gains a segregated cycle lane for the downhill (northbound) bit, while those heading uphill get to weave between pedestrians, piles of rubbish, etc. on the pavement.

It then bodges (via excessive road-crossings) into the poorly designed new infra that's under construction on the Silly Oak Triangle, before turning into bus lanes for the run to Northfield (apart from the bit uphill by the hospital, where you get to wobble about on the chutney while trying not to mow down any smokers or vulnerable pedestrians, because parking).

I mean, it's an improvement, but it's still fairly bollocks.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...