Author Topic: e-scooter trial  (Read 3057 times)

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2020, 08:50:18 pm »
If you passed your test since Feb 2001 then yes, and you need to do a CBT first, which will take a day and cost about £120-150.

Jan 2001. How handy...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2020, 08:55:32 pm »
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.


Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2020, 08:56:33 pm »

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2020, 09:15:31 pm »
Eleanor Southwood, RNIB chair, is a Councillor here in Brent.

She has shown an interest in trying t stoke a tandem but nothing has been arranged.

I understand objections to the 'high' speed limit of 15.5mph but I would not be happy mixing with motor traffic at low speeds. Using a mobility scooter limited to 8mph is terrifying in traffic.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2020, 09:32:36 pm »
<8mph is where inexperienced / less able bicyclists begin to wobble unpredictably.

8mph is about the point where it doesn't feel too scary and fast to be passed as a pedestrian (NB. I have good vision, hearing and balance - your pedestrianism may vary).

12mph seems to be the design speed for curves/sight-lines on better British cycleways.

15.5mph is a reasonable speed to expect a pedal cycle or similar machine to cruise at on the flat.

20mph is the point where, as a cyclist, the speed differential with normal 30-40mph motor traffic starts to feel non-scary.

>25mph is where I'll confidently take a primary position in normal traffic flow.


On this basis, it's unreasonable to expect peds to mix with cyclists (or runners) without oodles of space, and for most cyclists to mix with motor vehicles travelling at more than 20mph.  You can't change this by attempting to slow cyclists down.  (Not to mention that attempts to slow cyclists down usually result in them rule-breaking, being unable to access your infra, switching to another mode, or riding somewhere else.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2020, 09:34:08 pm »
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

I dunno, the CBT is a minor expense compared to buying a bike, is a one day course rather than a test you can fail, and teaches you some basic minimal road sense before releasing you on a 125 for two years.  I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Getting a full licence is harder: you need to pass a theory and two practical tests for a DAS if you're over 25, and if you're under 25 you have to step up the tests for the different power bands with their accordant lessons, so it becomes really quite time consuming and expensive.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2020, 09:40:58 pm »
Also, when are they going to turn their legislative eyes to the electric monowheels, skateboards and so on? As with e-scooters, these vehicles are here on the roads right now. Mostly, no one cares that they're illegal, least of all the police (here anyway). A general "lightweight electric personal vehicle" law could cover them all with the present speed, power and weight limits applicable to EAPC. Much better than getting into a faff and writing new legislation each time technology moves on.

I view this trial as a step towards that.

Being a hire scheme provides a level of accountability.
Possibly. Hopefully. In which case, I wonder if they'll keep the 500W motor and 55kg – useful for hire schemes to ensure vehicles don't flat out on hirers but not necessary for personal use charging overnight or at work

500W/55kg/driving licence seems reasonable if it's a de-facto motorbike, rather than one of these skateboard-with-handlebar things.
I thought skateboard with handlebar, or rather, adult-sized version of child's kickalong scooter, but powered by electricity, was what we were discussing. If we're talking about something more like a miniature electro-Vespa, with a seat and proper brakes (fcvo proper), then that's a thing I didn't realise. In fact, I was wondering about parallels between the kick-along-ability and the pedal-ability of EACPs. In any case, it's still restricted to 25km/h.

France went down a related road in the late 80s and 90s, with micro cars and mopeds which, IIRC, you could drive at 14 without a licence or test. They also had no number plates, which caused predictable jollity with parking. I don't know what their legal top speed was, I think it was something like 40km/h.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2020, 09:53:18 pm »
Yes, the rules about motorbike licenses have been ratcheted down quit a lot since I was a Hooligan.

Back in my day ( as best I remember ), passing a car test got you provisional licence up to 125cc, and then passing a bike test got you unlimited bike. End of story.

It's much more progressive now.
But I retain my grandfathered hooligan entitlements on my license.

I dunno, the CBT is a minor expense compared to buying a bike, is a one day course rather than a test you can fail, and teaches you some basic minimal road sense before releasing you on a 125 for two years.  I'd say that's a pretty good deal.

Getting a full licence is harder: you need to pass a theory and two practical tests for a DAS if you're over 25, and if you're under 25 you have to step up the tests for the different power bands with their accordant lessons, so it becomes really quite time consuming and expensive.

In my day, you could do a one-week course that got you access to anything.
Day one was a few lectures, a practice round the car park on the supplied 125s, and then a CBT assesment.
The remaining days were following the instructor around the local test course ( one self same 125s ), pointing out all the things that were being looked for.

You did the test ( one self same 125s ), and then you were free to ride anything you like.

And I did.
Hooligan 600cc sports bike.
Frankly, I'm surprised I'm still here.

fd3

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2020, 10:43:00 pm »
... what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:
a) Personal e-scooter stored under desk
b) E-bike locked up at Sheffield stand
c) Hired e-scooter left at dock?
E-bike.  Has (Count 'em) TWO proper brakes, will work better on the road as they have proper pneumatic tyres (or a decent size) and you don't look like a cretin riding them.

Kim, I think the issue with a bike-hire in Brum is that the centre is too small to require a bike hire and the trip to town is too far for most and keeping the number of bikes available topped up would be a pain.  E-bikes would go some way to solve this, but based on how easily vandalised/stolen hire bikes are I'm not convinced that it's a goer (also keeping the right number of E-bikes in the right place remains a headache).
[/I could be wrong]

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2020, 10:46:46 pm »
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.

On the whole, I think that lockdown has demonstrated that a mixed road environment, with enough variety that drivers know that they are just one class of road user, with the same rights as everyone else but no more, is preferable to the monoculture that we sometimes seemed to be heading for beforehand.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2020, 10:48:26 pm »
Kim, I think the issue with a bike-hire in Brum is that the centre is too small to require a bike hire and the trip to town is too far for most and keeping the number of bikes available topped up would be a pain.  E-bikes would go some way to solve this, but based on how easily vandalised/stolen hire bikes are I'm not convinced that it's a goer (also keeping the right number of E-bikes in the right place remains a headache).

That would explain a scheme failing to succeed (agree that bikes are of limited use within the city centre, which is small and plagued by tramlines and unhelpful one-way systems), but not why they've taken years to start one.  I think it's mostly been financial issues:

https://www.expressandstar.com/news/transport/2019/07/25/boris-bike-scheme-hanging-in-the-balance-after-nextbike-is-ditched/
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2020, 11:04:09 pm »
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.
Definitely. I rather like the look of the monowheel things, they still look a bit Jetsons cool.

Quote
On the whole, I think that lockdown has demonstrated that a mixed road environment, with enough variety that drivers know that they are just one class of road user, with the same rights as everyone else but no more, is preferable to the monoculture that we sometimes seemed to be heading for beforehand.
And this too. Shame it didn't last (though there are still more cyclists than before, here anyway. Probably in part because commuters are avoiding buses and kids are still off school.)
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2020, 11:05:24 pm »
The photo on this article shows "skateboard with handlebar" type scooters. Of course, it might not be illustratively accurate.

https://ebiketips.road.cc/content/news/uk-e-scooter-ban-lifted-as-rental-trials-to-begin-on-saturday-2447
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2020, 08:19:57 am »
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2020, 08:34:25 am »
You're giving me visions of photographers and journalists on high-power e-scooters, following the TdF riders.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2020, 10:36:57 am »
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
That isn't going to make them disappear.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
    • Mr Larrington's Automatic Diary
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2020, 12:50:26 pm »
Which raises the question of what is the most socially beneficial option for Colin Commuter, the one we should legislatively encourage:...
The answer of course is d) Hire-purchased SUV left half on the kerb.
I think this is an important point. Thinking about the desirability of specific vehicle types may not be the whole story. It's about people making choices between available options. Would I want to swap some SUVs for some e-scooters on the road? Yes please. Mostly, when I've been passed by (illegal) scooters, commuting in London before lockdown, it's made me smile much more than SUVs have.
Definitely. I rather like the look of the monowheel things, they still look a bit Jetsons cool.

My grate frend Evil Frank has one and proved beyond reasonable doubt that even a short dumpy retired lawyer looks cool when zipping around the mean streets of Battle Mountain.  But he's USAnian and anything goes over there.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2020, 01:10:41 pm »
The rules explicitly exclude monowheels and e-skateboards. The licensing requirements are for a moped, motorcycle or car license (AM, A, B). Obviously, as with most e-bikes, it will be easy to defeat the speed limiter on personal bikes - this may (along with the insurance) be another reason why hire schemes are proposed. You aren't going to pick a scooter from the dock and try to hack it to go faster.

I think the assumption is that it's a motorised version of a kids scooter, because those are the scooters that are currently hireable in other european cities. Wonder if it's possible to get personal insurance for riding one.  James Huang of CyclingTips crashed one and broke his 2 front teeth when in europe to cover a race last year (was it the TdF?).
That isn't going to make them disappear.
I know. It wouldn't have been too hard to make the rules accept them though, which makes me think that the rental companies were only lobbying for scooters and don't car about them or even deliberately excluded them).

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2020, 01:55:02 pm »
So it comes back to this being legislation aimed primarily at creating a commercial opportunity rather than opening up transport possibilities. Which is a shame. Nevertheless, we can hope that increased numbers of e-scooters will not only make the privately owned ones more acceptable (which they already are, really) but, due to their behaviour being more or less like a rather fast bicycle, improve traffic situations generally for cyclists and pedestrians.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Adam

  • It'll soon be summer
    • Charity ride Durness to Dover 18-25th June 2011
Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2020, 10:49:31 pm »
So it comes back to this being legislation aimed primarily at creating a commercial opportunity rather than opening up transport possibilities. Which is a shame. Nevertheless, we can hope that increased numbers of e-scooters will not only make the privately owned ones more acceptable (which they already are, really) but, due to their behaviour being more or less like a rather fast bicycle, improve traffic situations generally for cyclists and pedestrians.

Except some users will ride on the road and no doubt annoy motorists, whilst others will zip along the pavement, and annoy pedestrians.

Sadly, with our complete lack of proper segregated cycling infrastructure and lack of policing, it'll just end up being a free for all.
“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving.” -Albert Einstein

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2020, 09:09:33 pm »
Heard a headline on the news that the trial is planned for Middlesbrough.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2020, 01:11:04 pm »
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2020, 01:29:00 pm »
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Wrong linky, it seems.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2020, 03:19:21 pm »
Interview with the mayor on 'You and Yours, about 10 minutes before end:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000kmjd

Interestingly the speed will be capped at "about 11 1/2 mph and two and three wheeled 'sit on' versions may follow.
Wrong linky, it seems.
Strange, the description of the programme content correctly lists the other items that were aired.

Re: e-scooter trial
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2020, 09:49:09 pm »
https://youtu.be/vGf7NWrI01U    Looks fun.....    50mph...... :jurek:
Not fast & rarely furious

tweeting occasional in(s)anities as andrewxclark