Author Topic: Life expectancy  (Read 1800 times)

Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2020, 11:57:42 am »
I can imagine little worse than being locked inside a failing body.

This is pretty common, but people with failing bodies tend to get over that after a couple of years.  It's a mismatch of perspective that leads to all sorts of disablist/eugenicist thinking.

I never expected to get to 20, and I've not really settled on a stretch goal.  Ultimately, it's mostly down to luck and government policy, so it's somewhat academic.
Sorry, I still think it should be a personal decision, I can see that the pressure to conform to the ideal of a "plucky fighter" can be as demoralising to someone dealing with life affecting disability as anything else. But, I do understand what you mean.

To put this in personal perspective, I'm a fat git and I come from a long line of fat gits. My father was a fat git and his father before him. They were also both smokers, but they both ended up disabled with strokes living to mid to late 80s. I may change my mind, but I really can't see me wanting to continue living that way.

Regulator

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2020, 12:36:13 pm »
How long are you planning / hoping to live for?

I'm in my early 30s and think I'd feel happy with reaching 90, subject to quantity / quality considerations of course...


Maternal grandparents both died in their 80.  Paternal grandmother made 104 (Paternal grandfather died as a result of war wounds).  Mum's still going strong at 82.

I reckon I will make my 90s - unless cancer has a 'third time lucky' go...
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Mr Larrington

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #27 on: July 06, 2020, 02:09:25 pm »
Maternal grandparents* both died before Mrs Larrington (decd.) made it past her teens while Grandpa Tommy didn't reach 60 and Granny Annie (mine, not CrinklyLion's) scored ~70 before committing suicide.  Mrs Larrington (decd.) scored 77, Lt. Col. Larrington (retd.) currently 87 not out.  I expect medical SCIENCE will have advanced to the extent that I could live to $VERY_RIPE_OLD_AGE while the Conservative Party will make sure I can't afford to.  But it doesn't really matter, because he who dies with the most toys, wins.

* she refused to talk about her childhood to such an extent that I don't know what their names were.
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #28 on: July 06, 2020, 03:46:33 pm »
... he who dies with the most toys, wins.

I prefer to live by something Katharine Hepburn said: "Love has nothing to do with what you are expecting to get - only what you are expecting to give - which is everything. What you will receive in return varies. But it really has no conection with what you give. You give because you love and cannot help giving."

quixoticgeek

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #29 on: July 06, 2020, 03:55:04 pm »

Perhaps the related question is: And at what age do you expect to retire?

Given the way things are going, and the fact everyone is rapidly realising that pension schemes are a pyramid scheme, it's going to get interesting.

Not to mention will civilisation still exist by the time I would hope to retire?

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2020, 05:35:13 pm »
paternal grandfather dies at 96 having been a despatch rider and sergeant pilot in sopwiths, crash landing, being gassed and smoking a minimum of 60 Capstan full strength per day from the age of 14.  The death was unexpected enough that it was reported to the coroner as GP had not seen him recently enough!

Father died at 86 but had developed autoimmune disease in later life and took meg doses of steroids.  He survived tuberculosis as a child but the well know technique of being sent to the seaside and forced to spend 16 hours per day outside in the fresh air for 12 months!

I am 61 and presently fit and healthy.  Just lost 1.5 stone with another stone to go which will bring my BMI down to 21.5. Should help.

Happy to go now as I have seen 2 granddaughters, I am proud of my professional legacy and have been married happily for 39 years and have an expectation of what lies on the other side.  Very happy to live on though as plenty more things I would like to do.

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2020, 05:49:04 pm »
I play a very minor role in my younger two children's lives. We are on very good terms, but one lives in Melbourne and the other just isn't that communicative.

Dez has lived with us all his life, apart from a brief spell after leaving Uni when he had a flat not that far away, but we saw him almost every day. He's about to move out - all of 100 yards away - so I expect we will still see him most days.

As I mentioned upthread, I have no desire to hang around as civilisation collapses around us as a result of climate change and government incompetence, but I still play a major role in the life of my older daughter. Despite her professional competence she quite often phones me up to bounce ideas around. There's also a one-way stream of cash which goes in her direction so that's important.

I'd like to be around to see my grandchildren (10 and 7) get a bit older. As the youngest in a big family and a relatively old mother (43 whenI was born) both my grandfathers died before I was born and both my grandmothers were too frail to have played a great part in my childhood. I just wish I felt confident enough to be able to go and see them (my grandchildren, not my grandmothers) without risking terminating myself prematurely with Covid-19.
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2020, 06:20:35 pm »
Scientists speculate that for the first seven or eight decades, lifestyle is a stronger determinant of health and life span than genetics. Eating well, not drinking too much alcohol, avoiding tobacco, and staying physically active enable some individuals to attain a healthy old age; genetics then appears to play a progressively important role in keeping individuals healthy as they age into their eighties and beyond. Many nonagenarians and centenarians are able to live independently and avoid age-related diseases until the very last years of their lives.

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2020, 06:50:21 pm »
Quote from: quixoticgeek
And at what age do you expect to retire?
Unfortunately that's far too easy to answer.  Never.

As for how long I'm planning to live?  Not something that can be planned unless one is intent on suicide.   Last actuarial tables I glanced over a few years back suggest I've *probably* got between 15 & 20 years left, which as Dr. Johnson observed, concentrates the mind wonderfully.  That estimate also tallies with those (few) of my male blood relatives who made it past middle age.  Not an especially long lived breed yer lurker.
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2020, 07:09:39 am »
Some years ago I had a complete health check (this was in Russia, which may colour the results somewhat).

I was given a life expectancy of 95 if I gave up beer. My life expectancy would only be 90 if I didn't. Strangely enough drinking vodka produced no such reduction.

I still drink beer.

Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2020, 08:44:45 am »
I can imagine little worse than being locked inside a failing body.

This is pretty common, but people with failing bodies tend to get over that after a couple of years.  It's a mismatch of perspective that leads to all sorts of disablist/eugenicist thinking.

I never expected to get to 20, and I've not really settled on a stretch goal.  Ultimately, it's mostly down to luck and government policy, so it's somewhat academic.

This

I suspect a fairly high proportion of us are aware of the need to not be biased in our professional and personal lives. Gender, race, religion, sexuality; we should all be aware of not letting our personal bias affect our behaviour.

Holding a "I couldn't live with a body falling apart/permanently injured" is another form of bias. It leads directly to looking at injured or disabled people as 'lesser'. The "oh they are so strong" is also patronizing.

Let me tell you, as someone who had a childhood with legs in fibreglass casings, then years of being unable to run or jump, I really, really appreciate having a strong fit body. It won't last. Barring accidents, bodies deteriorate. Appreciate what you have, while you have it and accept that not everyone has (or wants) a body like that.

I know that one of my personal biases is against people who don't make an effort to look after their bodies. The ones who are incredibly unfit and feeble. That's my bias and I have to own it, not let it affect how I treat people.

Losing mental faculties and the phase of knowing what is happening but being unable to do anything about it, that would be difficult to deal with. Dementia is one of the cruelest diseases.
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2020, 10:17:31 am »

I can imagine little worse than being locked inside a failing body.

This is pretty common, but people with failing bodies tend to get over that after a couple of years.  It's a mismatch of perspective that leads to all sorts of disablist/eugenicist thinking.

I never expected to get to 20, and I've not really settled on a stretch goal.  Ultimately, it's mostly down to luck and government policy, so it's somewhat academic.


I was interested to learn that Keir Starmer's mother became ill with Still's disease, aged 11.  It was an illness that made her dependent on the NHS although she became a nurse herself.

Sic transit and all that..

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2020, 08:30:13 pm »
My parents, who lived, on the whole, healthy lives, eating and drinking in moderation, passed away last year, both in their mid-80s.  They were both outlived by the elder siblings, who exercised less.

Prior to a recent re-organisation, I was the oldest person in the department of 300+ employees in a well-known professional services firm at the tender age of 55.  It's quite possible that, now I am in a team of 600+ employees I am still the oldest at the advanced age of 56.  That makes me positively ancient. 

(I do tell them that my first client was Noah, and the reason the animals went in two by two was due to the limitations of IT systems in those days).
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FifeingEejit

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2020, 08:55:14 pm »
(I do tell them that my first client was Noah, and the reason the animals went in two by two was due to the limitations of IT systems in those days).

Obvious Joke, they went in 10 by 10 then?

ian

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2020, 10:11:10 pm »
Scientists speculate that for the first seven or eight decades, lifestyle is a stronger determinant of health and life span than genetics. Eating well, not drinking too much alcohol, avoiding tobacco, and staying physically active enable some individuals to attain a healthy old age; genetics then appears to play a progressively important role in keeping individuals healthy as they age into their eighties and beyond. Many nonagenarians and centenarians are able to live independently and avoid age-related diseases until the very last years of their lives.

Sort of, and kind of not really. Because we, unusually, continue to live long beyond our reproductive years (ageing paedo-scandal dodging rockers aside), there's no real selection pressure for genes that prolong our life. So there's an element of a good deck of genes (which is essentially luck), but the importance is playing that deck well, so avoiding environments that kill you and living healthily. People who are healthy in their twenties and thirties tend to stay that way into their later years and have more of those later years. If you're a chain-smoking podger at age 25, the prognosis is pretty poor.

Most bad gene combos will kill young, often before birth. So they're obviously heavily selected against, even ageing rockers tend to wait till they're a bit older before getting their moves on.

Aging is mostly accumulative damage, and a game of probabilities, so a perpetuation of those healthy traits is normally a recipe for a longer life (but not a guarantee). The one genetic effect that is causing selection for a longer lifespan is having children later. Populations who breed later live longer. Of course, they also tend to be more affluent first world populations, but there is a genetic component, we're creating a selection pressure.

Of course, you can't apply population genetics to individuals, and the best genes in the world won't protect you from the appetite of a hungry tiger.
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2020, 11:04:04 am »
Because we, unusually, continue to live long beyond our reproductive years (ageing paedo-scandal dodging rockers aside), there's no real selection pressure for genes that prolong our life.

There is the argument that groups with a large accumulation of experience do better than shorter-lived species, so having a tendency for longer individual lives favours the group as a whole.  Looking at US presidential candidates you have to hope so, senator and senile coming from the same root.
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ian

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2020, 12:02:57 pm »
The environment will always trump genes. Even if you have a cancer gene variant, it's mostly triggered by something, and that's a probabilistic relationship (plus these things are polygenic). The main things that have improved human life expectancy are clean water, vaccines, and improvements during childbirth. These have swamped any genetic effects by orders of magnitude.

For genes to benefit an old age, they have to have a benefit when you're younger, selection for these only applies to a reproducing population.

A degree of wisdom does help us get to an old age, as stupidity kills. The smart people delegate the tiger feeding tasks to those less smart. So I just get in cage with her and hold out the chicken, boss?
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2020, 12:31:02 pm »
The environment will always trump genes. Even if you have a cancer gene variant, it's mostly triggered by something, and that's a probabilistic relationship (plus these things are polygenic). The main things that have improved human life expectancy are clean water, vaccines, and improvements during childbirth. These have swamped any genetic effects by orders of magnitude.

For genes to benefit an old age, they have to have a benefit when you're younger, selection for these only applies to a reproducing population.

A degree of wisdom does help us get to an old age, as stupidity kills. The smart people delegate the tiger feeding tasks to those less smart. So I just get in cage with her and hold out the chicken, boss?

Thank you Mr Spock.
Sic transit and all that..

T42

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2020, 01:17:50 pm »
For genes to benefit an old age, they have to have a benefit when you're younger, selection for these only applies to a reproducing population.

The benefit being (a) someone to dump the kids on while you're busy knocking Ug over the head and (b) someone who'll be able to tell you what kind of club to use.
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2020, 03:37:19 pm »
Someone to dump the kids on: that's why grandmas live longer than grandpas.

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2020, 03:56:37 pm »
Someone to dump the kids on: that's why grandmas live longer than grandpas.

I understand that men who marry tend to live longer than men who don't, whilst women who marry tend to live less time than women who don't. I know my aunt Phyllis, who died just under a year ago aged 100, always replied, when asked about the secret of a long life, "Don't get married!"
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2020, 04:00:20 pm »
Living beyond reproductive age can still genetically selected. It is a balance between the resources you consume (depriving your offspring) and the services you provide (to protect them and later generations).


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ian

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2020, 04:05:52 pm »
That's the sort of. You can create indirect pressures, but I suspect that generally they'd be lost in environmental effects. But it gets complicated. If you do something as an older person that benefits a younger phenotype, then you'll create a selection pressure.
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Wowbagger

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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2020, 04:20:13 pm »
I'd guess that pressure is capable of cutting both ways. I've been able to improve my daughter's and her family's quality of life because I've bunged a fair bit of cash towards them, in precisely the same way as my dad bunged cash towards me when I was a penniless employed teacher. I suppose that replicated over a lot of families, that would lead to an increased life expectancy in a small number of them.

But then teaching seems to be a hereditary condition. My grandmother was a teacher, my father was a teacher, I was a teacher, my daughter is a teacher. That's over a century of teaching in 4 generations.
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Re: Life expectancy
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2020, 04:26:30 pm »
I was talking about over the ages rather than currently. Human offspring are clearly not able to survive immediately after birth. If there were a gene that selected for early death soon after reproduction it would have been selected out. Living to 2 or 3 times reproductive age is a measure of how dependent our children are.


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