Author Topic: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike  (Read 1480 times)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2020, 11:06:29 pm »
having ridden long distances (outside of racing) on a tt bike, the lack of drop bars is sub-optimal. wouldn't even consider such setup for touring. but, it's your bike and your choice!

Porkins

  • Formerly Nick H. And a long time ago etc, Eurostar
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2020, 11:27:25 pm »
So are your hands mostly on the hoods?

Shimano hoods are so huge these days that they're effectively non-aero bar extensions. Or bullhorns. 

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2020, 11:58:46 am »

Top picture of the three is the only way to go.

Guess what setup I have?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdH1yqAX0AAl-pI?format=jpg&name=large

I even have the same bar tape on the aero bars...

I have the ultegra TT brake levers, these have a single button on each side for Di2 gear shifting. I run the gears in sequential mode. I then have the dura ace single buttons on the stubby bar ends. I found for *REALLY* long rides that the classic aero bar wrist angle is really bad. It may be more aero, but having the bend in the wrist is a Bad Idea™. Hence the bar ends. I tend to rest against them. I know you can get ski jump aero bars etc... but these bars cost me €20 from the junk bin in my LBS. The bar end buttons are setup the same as the ones on the brakes. The bar ends are close enough together that I can actually press both buttons with the thumb of one hand. I do sometimes ride with one arm on the aero bar, and the other elbow on pad, propping up my head.

I find that as well as the classic "hoods" position on the base bar, I have a "tops" position, then the classic aero, and finally the one I actually ride in way more than I should, just hands on the elbow pads. This is a bit more upright, but for a relaxed ride, it's great. The only position I don't have, in this setup that I did have on the old drop bars, is the drops, but given how little I used the drops, I don't miss it.

I have 2 stem cell bags from alpit velcro'd to the bar, the left holds a water bottle, the right is my food bag. Depending on the ride, I have either a sleeping bag or a big fluffy coat, in a dry bag bungee'd to the underside of the aerobars. Said bars make a really good place to carry extra luggage.

That said I am pondering moving a spacer from above to below the stem, or maybe adding a bit of upward tilt to the base bar. But I'm not sure.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2020, 12:03:32 pm »


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EdH4YYmXgAMkmLj?format=jpg&name=large

Side view, The bag under the bars contains my sleeping quilt, and a sleep mat. You can also see the 1L water bottle. The black thing right at the front is my shorts drying after I washed them...

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2020, 05:45:27 pm »
I've been imagining this sort of multi-adjustable pointy-uppy setup:



But the more usual TT or Tri approach is a flatter product with less adjustment, such as this one:




What does the panel think? This is for comfy and efficient touring. I like to be comfy but I object to wasting energy by being non-aero. I like the kit used by those mental endurance record setters, but I'd only do 80-100 miles per day.

That is flat out wrong.

S bends were a minority option that peaked years ago.  J bends like your top picture are the near-universal bars used in every British time trial.

I have no idea where you're getting your info from but whatever it is you need to stop.

Porkins

  • Formerly Nick H. And a long time ago etc, Eurostar
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2020, 08:36:12 pm »
Do people find flatter clip-ons less comfortable? I've never tried them.

Sent from my SM-N976B using Tapatalk


Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2020, 09:08:13 pm »
Zero direct experience, but the wrist angle in that third picture is painful to even look at.

And contrary to what Karla says, if you’re *shopping* for aero bars the flatter style seem to be significantly more common.

Porkins

  • Formerly Nick H. And a long time ago etc, Eurostar
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2020, 09:29:05 pm »
I suppose I could test the flat approach just by turning my current clip-ons upside down.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2020, 09:37:33 pm »
Zero direct experience, but the wrist angle in that third picture is painful to even look at.

And contrary to what Karla says, if you’re *shopping* for aero bars the flatter style seem to be significantly more common.

When you look at the pro's they tend to have the flatter bars. But that is because they have wind tunnels and all that matters is the most aero position they can hold for about an hour. A lot of people who wanna look like a pro, thus have the flat bars. Thus their popularity. It's a really uncomfortable position for the wrist.

When you look at photos of ultra racers, their bikes tend to have the sky jump or J bars. Cos it's more comfortable.

I have no idea about UK amateur TT riders.

Do people find flatter clip-ons less comfortable? I've never tried them.

Less comfortable than the fully integrated base bar and setup? I think it all depends on how much you can adjust the fit. If you can get the fit right for you, then there is no reason you shouldn't find both comfortable. But it's a big if you can get the fully integrated setup to fit properly for you.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2020, 09:42:50 pm »
Do people find flatter clip-ons less comfortable?

Yes

And contrary to what Karla says, if you’re *shopping* for aero bars the flatter style seem to be significantly more common.

Like I just said, "J bends are the near universal option in every British time trial."

Go look at Kimroy who is the biggest photographer for such things.  That link will take you to his 2019 gallery.  Pick a random event.  You'll see very few S-bends. Something like the picture on this page will be far more common.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2020, 09:51:00 pm »
Like I just said, "J bends are the near universal option in every British time trial."

Go look at Kimroy who is the biggest photographer for such things.  That link will take you to his 2019 gallery.  Pick a random event.  You'll see very few S-bends. Something like the picture on this page will be far more common.

https://keyassets.timeincuk.net/inspirewp/live/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2018/09/canyon.jpg
https://blog.wiggle.co.uk/sites/default/files/resize/u1509/ttt_tdf19_kdqncg-800x531.jpg

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2020, 10:05:54 pm »


Rider 1 is riding semi-S bars, quite possibly these Zipps
Rider 2 is riding J bars
Rider 3 is riding Js too, but shallower ones
Riders 4, 5 and 6 all look like they're riding J's as well, though it's harder to tell.

Thanks for making my point.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2020, 10:10:31 pm »
Rider 1 is riding semi-S bars, quite possibly these Zipps
Rider 2 is riding J bars
Rider 3 is riding Js too, but shallower ones
Riders 4, 5 and 6 all look like they're riding J's as well, though it's harder to tell.

Thanks for making my point.

6 is on S as well I think.

There is a mix here. So J isn't universal. Is the point I was making...

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2020, 10:32:57 pm »
No, I'd say she's on 20 degree J's or semi S bars.  So none are on pure S bars like Porkins's picture.

... and you've just said you have "no idea about amateur UK TT riders"

... and my point was about amateur UK TT riders

... so you try to disprove it with a picture of a non-UK pro team

... who are mostly using J bars, with a couple of semis thrown in. 

That was really stupid don't you think?


Oh and by the way,

But that is because they have wind tunnels and all that matters is the most aero position they can hold for about an hour.

That is entirely false on more than one level.
1)They don't. Watch the 2019 TdF TTT and every team is on classic Js, except for Ineos who are on something rather like the new Wattshop anemoi bar
2) They aren't more aero.  I know quite a lot of people who have been to wind tunnels / similar, and guess what they don't come out with? 

Stop digging QG, you're embarrassing yourself.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2020, 10:49:11 pm »
No, I'd say she's on 20 degree J's or semi S bars.  So none are on pure S bars like Porkins's picture.

... and you've just said you have "no idea about amateur UK TT riders"

... and my point was about amateur UK TT riders

... so you try to disprove it with a picture of a non-UK pro team

... who are mostly using J bars, with a couple of semis thrown in. 

That was really stupid don't you think?


But this original thread is all about touring, and the purchasing of TT bars. Grams rightly points out that S bars and flat bars are a lot easier to buy than J bars. This matches my experience. I am not saying you are wrong. I am providing a different viewpoint.

Quote
Oh and by the way,

But that is because they have wind tunnels and all that matters is the most aero position they can hold for about an hour.

That is entirely false on more than one level.
1)They don't. Watch the 2019 TdF TTT and every team is on classic Js, except for Ineos who are on something rather like the new Wattshop anemoi bar
2) They aren't more aero.  I know quite a lot of people who have been to wind tunnels / similar, and guess what they don't come out with? 

Stop digging QG, you're embarrassing yourself.

Oh but it's fun...

Also:

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/news/7573/gallery-rohan-denniss-new-team-ineos-issue-pinarello-tt-bike

https://cdn.mos.cms.futurecdn.net/TtagwjEKp4CNdiFhVABbvJ.jpg

they look pretty flat S shaped to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFVfs7VKZWE

Geraint is the same...

They are a UK team, does that help?

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Porkins

  • Formerly Nick H. And a long time ago etc, Eurostar
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2020, 11:09:02 pm »
Karla, if you want to carry on ranting angrily about TTing, could you please start a different thread, so that others can have a friendly talk about specing a touring bike?

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2020, 11:30:57 pm »
Karla, if you want to carry on ranting angrily about TTing, could you please start a different thread, so that others can have a friendly talk about specing a touring bike?

That's fine, I'm trying to help you.

A few points on which I'm sufficiently well versed to be impossible to contradict*:
1) TT bikes are hard to control for myriad other reasons than having tribars, so don't worry..
2) Your third picture is not the norm for time triallists, so wipe it from your brain.  Your first picture is much closer to the norm as far as you're concerned.
3) There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to try putting your extensions upside down, so you needn't bother.

A guess, but a good guess, based on testing I've done myself and the odd bit of professional advice:
4) You will probably be more aero using J bends than S bends.

A link in case you need somewhere to buy any angle extension you want: Wattshop

*I've toured about 25,000 miles on tribars, as well as placing top 20 in several of the shittier national TT championships

Porkins

  • Formerly Nick H. And a long time ago etc, Eurostar
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #42 on: July 18, 2020, 11:49:11 pm »
Karla, there's no easy way to say this, but if your posts are sincerely meant to help, a psychologist would say that your erratic choice of words might indicate paranoia.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2020, 12:00:08 am »
That's fine, I'm trying to help you.

A few points on which I'm sufficiently well versed to be impossible to contradict*:
1) TT bikes are hard to control for myriad other reasons than having tribars, so don't worry..

Yep, lots of people confirmed this.

Just to add another point of anecedata, I did surprise a rider on an RNL 300 a couple of years ago by going round a roundabout on the aero bars... But my bike isn't a TT bike.

Quote
2) Your third picture is not the norm for time triallists, so wipe it from your brain.  Your first picture is much closer to the norm as far as you're concerned.

Yet, Gram's point about flatter tt bars being easier to find in the shops still stands:



They are also quite easy to find second hand as any quick search on ebay will show you.

As such while you can say as much as you like that all those in the know don't use them, they are very common and easy to buy. Infact they can be found in the cheap spares bin in some LBS shops... maybe for as little as €20, with bar tape already on them...

Quote
3) There's absolutely no reason whatsoever to try putting your extensions upside down, so you needn't bother.

Curiosity is always a valid reason to try most things once.

Quote

A guess, but a good guess, based on testing I've done myself and the odd bit of professional advice:
4) You will probably be more aero using J bends than S bends.

and probably more comfortable too. This noone disputes.

Quote
*I've toured about 25,000 miles on tribars, as well as placing top 20 in several of the shittier national TT championships

I'm not quite as big on the total distance having only been riding properly since 2017, I think it comes to about 20000km or so, give or take. But I have come 2nd in an Ultra race...

But hey, I'm an idiot that's embarrassing myself, so by all means take what I say with a pinch of salt*

J


*slice of lemon and shot of tequila optional.
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2020, 08:49:13 am »
I notice that some TT riders ( I know, it’s TT but they’re the only people I see using full tri-bar arrangements), have an extra brake lever on the extensions.
In a TT , typically the rider will have knowledge of the parcourse, and be able to anticipate when to move off the extensions - which involves a significant adjustment of weight distribution. To do so in an emergency situation would, I suggest, add to the time before the brakes are reached.

Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2020, 10:54:17 am »
which involves a significant adjustment of weight distribution.

Using such a brake in an emergency situation while down on the TT bars will also likely result in a sudden change of weight distribution.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2020, 11:12:55 am »
Karla, there's no easy way to say this, but if your posts are sincerely meant to help, a psychologist would say that your erratic choice of words might indicate paranoia.

Well that's a shame, because they're by far the best advice you'll get on this thread. 

Happy touring!

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2020, 11:18:37 am »
Karla, there's no easy way to say this, but if your posts are sincerely meant to help, a psychologist would say that your erratic choice of words might indicate paranoia.

Well that's a shame, because they're by far the best advice you'll get on this thread. 

[citation needed]

J
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Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2020, 11:26:23 am »
Despite being excessively combative at times, Karla knows his stuff. If he and I have differing opinions regarding cycling, I often reexamine my justifications to check whether my opinion is reasonable. Sometimes my opinion stays the same, sometimes it changes.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Control & safety with bullhorn bars & TT brake levers on a road bike
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2020, 01:49:38 pm »
I notice that some TT riders ( I know, it’s TT but they’re the only people I see using full tri-bar arrangements), have an extra brake lever on the extensions.
In a TT , typically the rider will have knowledge of the parcourse, and be able to anticipate when to move off the extensions - which involves a significant adjustment of weight distribution. To do so in an emergency situation would, I suggest, add to the time before the brakes are reached.

If they're doing this in England and Wales, they're breaking the CTT regs and will be thrown out of the next event they ride!  I've no idea about UCI regs but I'd be surprised if they were different.    Where was this person competing, and are you sure it wasn't a brake gear lever you saw?