Author Topic: NCN cuts 25% of its routes  (Read 1397 times)

Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2020, 07:07:51 pm »
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.
Wait for high tide and swim ?


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Socks

  • FFCT rally, France 2012
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2020, 07:30:07 pm »
Having cycled in several European countries and seen how good things can be, I have some sympathy with Sustrans.  They have managed to persuade unsympathetic local authorities to support useful cycle routes, I'm sure they wouldn't have done so otherwise.  My impression is that the culture change required - cycling as a practical, healthy, environmentally good form of transport - still isn't recognised by politicians and highways engineers.

For example, there's a big road junction two miles from me.  Rebuilt a few years ago and despite this it has all the classic 1970's features.  Merging traffic lanes, traffic lights with no ASL, token cycle path which involves leaving the road and waiting at crossing lights, there's even the classic 'cyclists dismount' sign, for no apparent reason.

It would be nice to think that this review will help to encourage better cycle path and on-road cycle standards ....

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2020, 07:37:19 pm »
Having cycled in several European countries and seen how good things can be, I have some sympathy with Sustrans.  They have managed to persuade unsympathetic local authorities to support useful cycle routes, I'm sure they wouldn't have done so otherwise.  My impression is that the culture change required - cycling as a practical, healthy, environmentally good form of transport - still isn't recognised by politicians and highways engineers.

For example, there's a big road junction two miles from me.  Rebuilt a few years ago and despite this it has all the classic 1970's features.  Merging traffic lanes, traffic lights with no ASL, token cycle path which involves leaving the road and waiting at crossing lights, there's even the classic 'cyclists dismount' sign, for no apparent reason.

It would be nice to think that this review will help to encourage better cycle path and on-road cycle standards ....

I always got the impression, that despite the trans in sustrans being supposedly "transport", that the aim of many sustrans were more aimed at cycling as leisure. Many of the routes are lovely if you want to go from a to somewhere that isn't a, via a scenic route. But if you want to be able to cycle from a to b for the purpose of achieving something at either a or b, say to goto work. Then no chance. Route 1 around Canterbury always seemed like this. The Crab and Winkle way part, from Canterbury to Whistable is lovely as a scenic ride, but if you wanted to commute from Canterbury to Whitstable, it's not a route you'd wanna take, not on a dark winter's eve when it's raining. Their route 18 section along the river was opened with much fanfare and celebration, and I used to use it to cycle to Chartham to get cake from the farmers market, but the cattle grids made it most unpleasant, the one time I tried to use it on the way back from college it was largely impassable due to sheep, and entirely unlit. Then of course it's underwater for a good 3 months of the year... and you don't wanna do it on 23mm tyres...

Shame really, they could have made a really good route for cycling from Canterbury to Ashford... or to Whitstable. or

sorry I'm ranting...

J
--
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http://b.42q.eu/

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2020, 08:04:58 pm »
Route 1 around Canterbury always seemed like this. The Crab and Winkle way part, from Canterbury to Whistable is lovely as a scenic ride, but if you wanted to commute from Canterbury to Whitstable, it's not a route you'd wanna take, not on a dark winter's eve when it's raining. Their route 18 section along the river was opened with much fanfare and celebration, and I used to use it to cycle to Chartham to get cake from the farmers market, but the cattle grids made it most unpleasant, the one time I tried to use it on the way back from college it was largely impassable due to sheep, and entirely unlit. Then of course it's underwater for a good 3 months of the year... and you don't wanna do it on 23mm tyres...

I don't know when you last rode the C&W but it has been much improved in recent years - there are still a few roughish sections but the worst bits are now mostly tarmac. Personally, I would far rather use it for commuting between W and C than the A290 (which I live on) or the Radfall Road - the archetypal narrow, winding country lane with a 60 limit that many of the local drivers treat as a minimum target speed.

The route to Chartham has also been significantly upgraded and is fairly rideable in summer, though it does still have a couple of cattle grids and still has large underwater sections in winter.

Bizarrely, I was out walking the dog on the C&W recently when a motorbike came through - not just a yoof on a 50cc hairdryer, a grown-up bloke on proper big 500cc job. He was progressing oh-so-carefully, clearly knowing he shouldn't be there, but WTAF? I should have pushed the fucker off.  >:(
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Tim Hall

  • I want to eat the fleeting shade of your lashes
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2020, 08:26:27 pm »
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

Tennis rackets on feet?
Snow Shoes
Mud Shoes?
Splatchers.
There are two ways you can get exercise out of a bicycle: you can
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Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #30 on: July 19, 2020, 08:59:04 pm »
There's a tile I want that would require going out onto the mud. Trying to work out how to address this.

Can it be approached by water at high tide?

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #31 on: July 19, 2020, 09:04:46 pm »

I don't know when you last rode the C&W but it has been much improved in recent years - there are still a few roughish sections but the worst bits are now mostly tarmac. Personally, I would far rather use it for commuting between W and C than the A290 (which I live on) or the Radfall Road - the archetypal narrow, winding country lane with a 60 limit that many of the local drivers treat as a minimum target speed.


2016 was when I last did it. Unless it's lit it's not going to work. Remember, we should be building cycle transport systems for 8-80. Would you be happy with kids cycling that way to get to school ?

Good that a lot more of it is Tarmac now, it used to be all gravel for the most part.

Quote

The route to Chartham has also been significantly upgraded and is fairly rideable in summer, though it does still have a couple of cattle grids and still has large underwater sections in winter.

Bizarrely, I was out walking the dog on the C&W recently when a motorbike came through - not just a yoof on a 50cc hairdryer, a grown-up bloke on proper big 500cc job. He was progressing oh-so-carefully, clearly knowing he shouldn't be there, but WTAF? I should have pushed the fucker off.  >:(

In summer... Again, not lit, would you let your kids ride to school on it?

I'm guessing said motorbike rider got lost and was trying to work out how to get out of there... or maybe following a sat nav?

J
--
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http://b.42q.eu/

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #32 on: July 19, 2020, 09:38:13 pm »
Unless it's lit it's not going to work.

A fair point.

I used to cycle to school on unlit lanes with Ever Ready lights but that was Different Times.

Quote
it used to be all gravel for the most part.

I have quite a high tolerance for rough surfaces but I appreciate that not everyone does. Some years ago, I led some post-FNRttC riders back to Canterbury to get the train along the C&W and they didn't thank me for it.  ;D

Quote
I'm guessing said motorbike rider got lost and was trying to work out how to get out of there... or maybe following a sat nav?

Dunno - it's hard to get onto the C&W accidentally, I would think it has to be a conscious decision.

This was fairly early in lockdown, so I assumed he was simply taking advantage of there being fewer people about. Though I can't see what the advantage would be for a motorcyclist in using that route.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #33 on: July 19, 2020, 09:41:20 pm »
Their muddled thought process of focusing on "ordinary" cyclists, rather than those who wear lycra and ride nice road bikes, seems to have blinded them to the possibility that even "ordinary" cyclists don't like having to carry their bikes up flights of stairs, and don't much care for riding over rough, muddy terrain with rocks and tree roots to negotiate.

I think their idea of 'ordinary' cyclists are basically those who dust the BSO off a few times a year in order to pootle 2 miles with their 6-10 year old.  As such their priority is  a) no cars  and b) see (a).

That might even be a fair assessment of the majority of BRITISH cycling.  Certainly it's what I'd expect to get if you hang around with a clipboard in the average park-that-happens-to-have-a-NCN-route-through-it.  I think that's also the priority of the average NCN pedestrian, who just wants some peace & quiet / breathable air while taking a useful shortcut, going for a run or emptying their dog.

They'll make a token nod to other flavours of cyclist, particularly those riding off-road bikes over pretty hills, and those commuting between Bristol and Bath, but seem to have a real blind spot for loaded tourists and faster cyclists who just want a minimum of faff.  I do genuinely think they grok the issues of non-standard cycles, child trailers and the like, but are limited by their lack of control over the physical infrastructure.

They've got this catch-22 problem where sticking their brand on any old rubbish to increase the on-paper size of the network gives them more credibility in the eyes of those allocating resources.  I think they've realised this wasn't working, and are now trying to achieve some sort of standards.  Unfortunately, their priority (for better or for worse) remains the avoidance of motor traffic.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #34 on: July 19, 2020, 09:56:16 pm »
Their muddled thought process of focusing on "ordinary" cyclists, rather than those who wear lycra and ride nice road bikes, seems to have blinded them to the possibility that even "ordinary" cyclists don't like having to carry their bikes up flights of stairs, and don't much care for riding over rough, muddy terrain with rocks and tree roots to negotiate.

I think their idea of 'ordinary' cyclists are basically those who dust the BSO off a few times a year in order to pootle 2 miles with their 6-10 year old.  As such their priority is  a) no cars  and b) see (a).

That might even be a fair assessment of the majority of BRITISH cycling.  Certainly it's what I'd expect to get if you hang around with a clipboard in the average park-that-happens-to-have-a-NCN-route-through-it.  I think that's also the priority of the average NCN pedestrian, who just wants some peace & quiet / breathable air while taking a useful shortcut, going for a run or emptying their dog.

They'll make a token nod to other flavours of cyclist, particularly those riding off-road bikes over pretty hills, and those commuting between Bristol and Bath, but seem to have a real blind spot for loaded tourists and faster cyclists who just want a minimum of faff.  I do genuinely think they grok the issues of non-standard cycles, child trailers and the like, but are limited by their lack of control over the physical infrastructure.

They've got this catch-22 problem where sticking their brand on any old rubbish to increase the on-paper size of the network gives them more credibility in the eyes of those allocating resources.  I think they've realised this wasn't working, and are now trying to achieve some sort of standards.  Unfortunately, their priority (for better or for worse) remains the avoidance of motor traffic.

https://www.snelfietsroutesgelderland.nl/RijnWaalpad

This is what we should be building. And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages. Give it priority at every crossing of a road. If there are roads that can be used to have a nice segregated wide cycle route, even better.

Any questions, please look up Quixotic in the dictionary...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #35 on: July 19, 2020, 10:06:13 pm »
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #36 on: July 19, 2020, 10:07:22 pm »
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2020, 10:49:01 pm »
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

You are Elon Musk AICM5PBTC
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2020, 11:45:44 pm »
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

J

Where do you think this is, Norway or something?
Somehow boring tunnels in the UK is considerably more expensive than anywhere else in the world, even Norway...

Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2020, 07:10:00 am »
Fat trice ...... ;)
the slower you go the more you see

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2020, 08:08:23 am »

You are Elon Musk AICM5PBTC

Meow!

That's mean!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2020, 08:45:57 am »
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)


Boring.

Seriously, go through the hills.

J

Where do you think this is, Norway or something?
Somehow boring tunnels in the UK is considerably more expensive than anywhere else in the world, even Norway...

Who said anything about tunnels? Cuttings, my man, cuttings.

NCN 11, wot goes past the end of my road is actually not that bad in the main.  The really annoying bits are the 2ft wide, cracked and potholed surface along the river bank from Ely to Barway and the gravelled/mud section from Wicken towards Swaffham Prior, both of which are navigable, even in winter on 28mm tyres (but not a 'bent), but not really commute suitable.  The Barway section is passablem, but tricky to do so without a main road, the Wicken section is easily passable on decent back roads, which is now my new route of choice to Addenbrookes.   The section North to Kings Lynn by contrast is great - mostly on nice country lanes - audax style, even passing a few pubbes

“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2020, 08:52:02 am »
Who said anything about tunnels? Cuttings, my man, cuttings.

NCN 11, wot goes past the end of my road is actually not that bad in the main.  The really annoying bits are the 2ft wide, cracked and potholed surface along the river bank from Ely to Barway and the gravelled/mud section from Wicken towards Swaffham Prior, both of which are navigable, even in winter on 28mm tyres (but not a 'bent), but not really commute suitable.  The Barway section is passablem, but tricky to do so without a main road, the Wicken section is easily passable on decent back roads, which is now my new route of choice to Addenbrookes.   The section North to Kings Lynn by contrast is great - mostly on nice country lanes - audax style, even passing a few pubbes

What about doing it on a hand cycle? or a cargo trike? or with a trailer?

If it can't take these, it's not suitable.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #43 on: July 20, 2020, 09:32:40 am »
I'd agree that Sustrans' conception of their routes is virtually all leisure focused. They do have some which are very usable and highly used by commuters but even their recent proposals for the Bristol-Bath route, which I'll find for you in a minute, indicate they don't really consider them as important (basically they're suggesting narrowing the path at key points by putting in a lots of extra shrubbery to create areas where people can sit around, channelling all the cyclists into one side; it's already way too narrow at peak times and though "speeding" cyclists are a problem, this isn't going to solve it*).

*Removing the Strava sections might help. Or adjustment to typical working hours...
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #44 on: July 20, 2020, 10:21:28 am »
Who said anything about tunnels? Cuttings, my man, cuttings.

NCN 11, wot goes past the end of my road is actually not that bad in the main.  The really annoying bits are the 2ft wide, cracked and potholed surface along the river bank from Ely to Barway and the gravelled/mud section from Wicken towards Swaffham Prior, both of which are navigable, even in winter on 28mm tyres (but not a 'bent), but not really commute suitable.  The Barway section is passablem, but tricky to do so without a main road, the Wicken section is easily passable on decent back roads, which is now my new route of choice to Addenbrookes.   The section North to Kings Lynn by contrast is great - mostly on nice country lanes - audax style, even passing a few pubbes

What about doing it on a hand cycle? or a cargo trike? or with a trailer?

If it can't take these, it's not suitable.

J

I wouldn't do the riverside section other than in good conditions, and not other than on a two-wheeler. I think that tells you everything.
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Mr Larrington

  • A bit ov a lyv wyr by slof standirds
  • Custard Wallah
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Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2020, 01:38:01 pm »
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)

I expect the canal builders of old worked it out.  Contour canal versus flights of locks, embankments, cuttings, tunnels, aqueducts and the Foxton Inclined Plane.
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Kim

  • Timelord
Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #46 on: July 20, 2020, 02:57:49 pm »
And we should build them like Roman Roads. Draw a line between every major town, bend it slightly to make it go to villages.

You've been in .nl too long.  There's nothing wrong with going *round* the hills, if it doesn't add too much extra distance.  (There's probably a formula for calculating whether a given Larrington Manoeuvre is reasonable.  Set it to female utility cyclist with child seat or something.)

I expect the canal builders of old worked it out.  Contour canal versus flights of locks, embankments, cuttings, tunnels, aqueducts and the Foxton Inclined Plane.

Just add mud, nettles, a group of oiks waiting to push you off your bike and some NCN signs.   :thumbsup:
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: NCN cuts 25% of its routes
« Reply #47 on: July 20, 2020, 05:56:49 pm »
What I don't quite understand is, if a part of the route is deemed unsafe, e.g. the Hartside section of the C2C, does the whole route have its signage removed or just the unsafe bit? Does the C2C then cease to exist?
I am often asked, what does YOAV stand for? It stands for Yoav On A Velo