Author Topic: Is it the end of cash?  (Read 1156 times)

Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Is it the end of cash?
« on: July 30, 2020, 10:25:06 pm »
With that Pandemic thing going on (It's true, I heard about it on the news) there seems to be an awful lot of places going "Card Only". Do you reckon they'll go back to taking cash if we ever declare final victory over Coronavirus?
The grown-ups at my place of work seem very happy without having to pay people to count cash, buy change, hire an armoured man in a van to take the cash to the bank etc.

Does anyone else have an insight?
Tandem Stoker, CX bike abuser (slicks and tarmac) and owner of a sadly neglected MTB.

CommuteTooFar

  • Inadequate Randonneur
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 09:21:33 am »
I have not used cash for two years in the UK. Have used Euros the foreigners seem to be behind us.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2020, 09:25:57 am »
I've seen reports that many small businesses want to re-balance back towards cash due to the high costs of the card payment processors.
Yes, handling cash has it's costs too.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2020, 09:35:49 am »
I am expecting two deliveries from small local traders in comestibles today.  Both take cash, one only takes cash and has only ever taken cash in the near 20 years that I have known him.

I have used a lot less cash during covid-19 than previously but I hope and expect to get back to cash when nature has run it's course.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2020, 09:37:17 am »
Some businesses are keen to continue tax dodging.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2020, 11:57:48 am »
The only place I’ve paid cash in recent time sis the barbers shop, whence I had to go out to the cash machine especially once the deed had been done. The barber complained that the machine providers she’d tried all wanted 10% of each transaction which she considered to high a cost.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2020, 11:59:37 am »
How much does it cost to do contactless payments for low-value transactions?
I really don't have much idea how reasonable the grumbling I hear is.
Contactless was supposed to be low-cost to the retailers to make it suitable as a cash replacement, I thought.

I presume there's an initial set-up cost presumably an ongoing monthly subscription to the service, then a per-transaction cost.

I've heard people saying this is running to hundreds of pounds a month.
Is that tosh?

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2020, 12:08:52 pm »
There's usually a percentage transaction fee (0.2-0.3%) plus a fixed fee per transaction (I think around 2p). Leastways, that's what my wife's orchestra gets charged (they now let you pay for tickets with a PoS terminal, this mug gets to sit there and do the hard work).

Then are fees for the PoS terminal (and the data), though they're fairly cheap these days, and you get stuff that runs on your phone or tablet.

I don't know about how that stacks up against cash, I think businesses probably underestimate the actual costs in time and effort of going to banks and stuff, plus there's a risk of getting robbed – if you're a cash business, you need a float whereas cashless, the tills are empty.
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Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2020, 12:09:43 pm »
Some businesses are keen to continue tax dodging.

Indeed but the vast majority of small traders in fact do no tax dodge.  It is usually those who can afford expensive accountants and lawyers that do.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2020, 12:10:57 pm »
Hmm, I'm pretty sure that most small business who insist on cash-in-hand aren't doing it for convenience.
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Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2020, 12:15:10 pm »
It would be nice if middle class England stopped passing judgement on traders who accept cash.  Just like speeders there is a percentage who will break the law come what may.  We have seen these idiots in action flouting lockdown restrictions for instance and as cyclists we feel the brunt of the moton lobby insisting that every cyclist rides on the pavement and runs red lights.  We know this not to be the case but the fascist press inspired lies become societal beliefs.

Small traders and small businesses are no different.  Just another scapegoat.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2020, 12:17:37 pm »
There's usually a percentage transaction fee (0.2-0.3%) plus a fixed fee per transaction (I think around 2p). Leastways, that's what my wife's orchestra gets charged (they now let you pay for tickets with a PoS terminal, this mug gets to sit there and do the hard work).

Then are fees for the PoS terminal (and the data), though they're fairly cheap these days, and you get stuff that runs on your phone or tablet.

I don't know about how that stacks up against cash, I think businesses probably underestimate the actual costs in time and effort of going to banks and stuff, plus there's a risk of getting robbed – if you're a cash business, you need a float whereas cashless, the tills are empty.

From memory counting several grand from a till, reconciling it and preparing the float for the next day would take maybe 15 mins if all was well. The cash float would also be counted by the cashier at the beginning of the day/shift. Some people able to work much faster than others. Banking - maybe 30 mins? Couriers to pick the cash up £xxx. Contract to supply £yy.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2020, 12:32:54 pm »
I've seen reports that many small businesses want to re-balance back towards cash due to the high costs of the card payment processors.
Yes, handling cash has it's costs too.

And other small retailers seem to actively encourage it - certainly the gee-gaw and birthday cards place in Tring has done so for quite some time, well before the lockdown.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2020, 12:35:32 pm »
It would be nice if middle class England stopped passing judgement on traders who accept cash.

Accepting cash is one one thing, demanding it exclusively is another.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2020, 12:37:37 pm »
I dislike cash.

It's fiddly, comes in awkward sizes, and requires me to either end up with odd lumps of random change or fiddle around trying to make up amounts.

I like paying by contactless card, I have three cards in my wallet and one of them is my driving licence, I don't have to check if I have enough cash, or find a bank or cash machine, if I want a coffee (or beer ) I order, tap and go. Cash means I have to make trips specifically to get money, it's a hindrance and get's in the way, especially when the one cash machine is broken so I have to then travel to Stroud, or Nailsworth to find a working one.

At least my banking app let's me scan cheques so I don't have to go to a bank (which is at least open half a day on Saturdays ) to deal with them when people insist on not using online banking.

Money is an enabler, I don't want faff around using it, cash is faffy, cheques are worse, they put admin in the way of doing the things I want.
Somewhat of a professional tea drinker.


FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #15 on: July 31, 2020, 12:38:02 pm »
I've seen reports that many small businesses want to re-balance back towards cash due to the high costs of the card payment processors.
Yes, handling cash has it's costs too.

I remember one of the main ideas of contactless was it would allow the card companies to undercut the banks cash handling charges.
TBH, if businesses aren't adjusting their prices to suit their operating costs, they've only got themselves to blame; I'm not paying cash unless they give no other option and there isn't another place to go to that will take cards; cash is just too inconvenient.

The only place I’ve paid cash in recent time sis the barbers shop, whence I had to go out to the cash machine especially once the deed had been done. The barber complained that the machine providers she’d tried all wanted 10% of each transaction which she considered to high a cost.

I wish I could remember accurately what the cost of banking a five pound note was back in 2002.
Walking through Dundee with 3 grand on me was scary enough.
A few months later the safe was emptied by an unwanted nighttime visitor
Being a computer shop, the majority of our sales were card based.

From memory counting several grand from a till, reconciling it and preparing the float for the next day would take maybe 15 mins if all was well. The cash float would also be counted by the cashier at the beginning of the day/shift. Some people able to work much faster than others. Banking - maybe 30 mins? Couriers to pick the cash up £xxx. Contract to supply £yy.

We were pretty quick at the cashing up, but it was 1 till per shop and a small float and a 5 minute walk to the bank and back, maybe 10 mins in side.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #16 on: July 31, 2020, 12:46:33 pm »
It would be nice if middle class England stopped passing judgement on traders who accept cash.

Accepting cash is one one thing, demanding it exclusively is another.

I agree entirely.


I prefer cash but am willing to use contactless.  I don't like the lack of security that comes with contactless.   I speak as somebody who once had his back pocket stealthily cut and wallet removed.  This was in the pre-contactless days and my wallet was found minus the £40 in cash but with my bank cards intact.

I don't do online banking either.   Everybody has the right to choose and I still do not believe that it is secure enough.  Having worked in the fraud prevention and detection sector for 16 years and still having not only friends but a family member currently working in that sector, I haven't been convinced at all to change my view.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #17 on: July 31, 2020, 12:51:59 pm »
I prefer cash but am willing to use contactless.  I don't like the lack of security that comes with contactless.   I speak as somebody who once had his back pocket stealthily cut and wallet removed.  This was in the pre-contactless days and my wallet was found minus the £40 in cash but with my bank cards intact.

Unless the perpetrator is caught and can prove they took 40 quid off you, that 40 quid is gone for ever and its your problem.
If the card is used after the point you spot it's been nicked, it's your banks problem.

Card is made more secure by the rules applied to it by law.
Cash is a free for all.

Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #18 on: July 31, 2020, 12:54:58 pm »
Er, no.  It is your problem unless you can convince your bank that you didn't use your debit card.  It can take a lot of effort and plenty of stress to resolve the issue.


Morat

  • I tried to HTFU but something went ping :(
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #19 on: July 31, 2020, 02:17:33 pm »
Point of information :) https://online.worldpay.com/pricing

From my point of view, contactless on your phone via Android Pay or Apple Pay is the best of all worlds. Contactless payment, without the £45 limit and every transaction is secured by the fingerprint reader on your phone. There's no need for a receipt as your spending history is available through the app as well as the normal notification on your bank account. The downside is the fact that Google/Apple probably know what you've bought and from whom. I don't know if they actually care about me that much. Perhaps if I had a SuperDuper Amex bound to my phone they'd take me more seriously.

I do still carry my bank cards but I should probably regard them as the backup that I keep in a safe place at home since they are more vulnerable to being used after a wallet loss/theft.

Phone batteries do vary and I still tuck a card in my saddle bag between the spare tubes and CO2 canisters just in case!

From the retailer's point of view, at least the small to medium-sized one that I work for, removing cash from the equation does seem to remove a lot of work. With 15 or so tills on a busy day and seven-day trading, it took a cashier in Accounts probably half a day a week to count up the cash and put it into £20k bags for the security van to take away. So, we needed a safe, and insurance, and change orders, and people checking the cash. etc etc.

I've asked around since the first post and most people at work seem happier to stay cash-free forever, with the occasional warning that some older people get confused by cards or don't trust them - but it's not hard to show them how to work a contactless transaction so maybe that will become a non-issue. Similarly, we hardly ever (like maybe twice a year?) take a cheque at a Retail till despite it still being an option.
Tandem Stoker, CX bike abuser (slicks and tarmac) and owner of a sadly neglected MTB.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #20 on: July 31, 2020, 02:21:21 pm »
Er, no.  It is your problem unless you can convince your bank that you didn't use your debit card.  It can take a lot of effort and plenty of stress to resolve the issue.

"Shouldn't" be much more than the crime number and the date/time of reporting.

Your 40 quid cash is still gone for ever as soon as it's gone
the £45 quid debit card transaction is technically recoverable.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #21 on: July 31, 2020, 02:38:40 pm »
I have not used cash for two years in the UK. Have used Euros the foreigners seem to be behind us.

Not round these parts they aren't.

Amsterdam is largely cashless now. But what makes it worse tho is that it's local cards only. Because everyone here gets a Maestro or vpay card from their bank, and those cards work everywhere when we travel, the assumption is that the reverse is true, when you explain to a Dutch person how UK debit cards work, how they are functionally (to the retailer) the same as a credit card etc... And they just look at you like you're crazy.

Maestro has locked the market here because the processing fees are so cheap. Just €0.02 per transaction for a company doing 500 transactions a month.

But it comes with no buyer protection. And doesn't work online. For online they get round this due to a system called iDeal, which only works within the BeNeLux. But it's just a front end for the local equivalent of a BACS transfer. It has zero buyer protection built in. Last year i was explaining this to a friend's family member. They said this system was fine and they didn't like the idea that there were extra processing costs for the retailer just for buyer protection.

2 months ago said person comes to me for advice. They ordered something from some website, and paid by iDeal and it never arrived. She spoke to her bank and they said they couldn't help. The police couldn't do much either.

My reply rhymes with i bold you crow...

The lack of consumer protection can be a bit or a pain. Many don't realise this until they need it, then it's too late.

I like contactless. It's just so damn easy. But I do wish there was more protection for the average person. And that I could use my credit card in more places.

But then it's also important to remember. A cashless society is a surveillance society.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #22 on: July 31, 2020, 02:44:03 pm »
I had my hair cut yesterday (gone skinhead, at least that's how it feels by contrast) and had to pay cash. All three local bakeries OTOH only take cards. One of three greengrocers is cash only. So atm (pun not deliberate) you generally still need both cards and cash.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2020, 03:36:31 pm »
I have mixed feelings, but I like cashless. I've dumped my wallet, I have all my cards on phone and watch, don't need to worry about change etc. Most small businesses seem to prefer waving a PoS terminal at me, I guess it's less hassle and it's 3p on a £5 pint.

Mixed feelings because of a lack of control. I mentioned that TfL once decided to simply remove my ability to use my card to travel because it had failed a revenue check. No notification, no nothing. They just stopped it. The only way I found out was checking my account (and it was their error, not mine). Now, fortunately, I have multiple cards, but simply paying cash to buy a ticket was at least an option. You can't arbitrarily discontinue a five-pound note like you can a card.
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Is it the end of cash?
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2020, 04:54:14 pm »
I "dumped my wallet" at the start of lockdown in favour of this: https://www.cycleofgood.com/shop/gifts/wallets-and-purses/pocket-wallet/
which is good because:
It's made of old inner tubes; tough and cycley!
It's very slim and flat, good for a trouser or jersey pocket
Good cause etc

It wouldn't be any good for coins but you could keep banknotes in there.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...