Is it the end of cash?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Another one of the protesters said they fear financial transactions are heading in a way where they will soon be done by microchip implants.

“There will be nowhere you can go where you’re not tracked and traced,” they warned.

“If they don’t like your opinions, you could be cut off from all your resources, pushed out from all access.

“In America, they are chipping dogs and cats in preparation almost,” they added.

https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/protesters-gather-to-campaign-against-cashless-society/

[Kim]

Sometimes I wonder if this sort of moonhowling conspiraloonery is deliberately encouraged to remove credibility from perfectly reasonable privacy arguments.  But that would in itself be conspiraloonery.

It's just scared people with little physics education who've never tried to get a reliable RFID read from something at more than 20cm, lead by grifters.

[quixoticgeek]

Sometimes I wonder if this sort of moonhowling conspiraloonery is deliberately encouraged to remove credibility from perfectly reasonable privacy arguments.  But that would in itself be conspiraloonery.

It's just scared people with little physics education who've never tried to get a reliable RFID read from something at more than 20cm, lead by grifters.

Agreed.

But the basic principle is true. A cashless society is a surveillance society. Tho microchipping isn't necessary. We can track where you are by following the probes of your phone and tracking the Mac address...

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

I walked past them and they called out something about Central Bank Digital Currency, so that's a real thing about which there might be legitimate concerns. None of them had any placards or messages about chipping dogs and cats, which is of course is another real thing – and, I note, one that crops up in covid conspiracies. But they did, I'm afraid, have about them an aura of eccentricity verging on aberration (even by the standards of this part of Bristol!). I've seen them there before, so maybe I'll get a chance to question them about pet-chipping in relation to payments (or maybe forumites can compile a list of questions for them – though I'm sure you'll have your own local group to put them to).

[quixoticgeek]

"Um, ma'am, why are you holding your cat up to the card terminal? "

"I'm trying to pay with mastercat"

J

[Cudzoziemiec]

"Um, ma'am, why are you holding your cat up to the card terminal? "

"I'm trying to pay with mastercat"

J

[robgul]

. .  and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options.  BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . .  downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.

Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . .  and argue the toss later should it be necessary.

[mrcharly-YHT]

"Um, ma'am, why are you holding your cat up to the card terminal? "

"I'm trying to pay with mastercat"

J

POTD!

[mrcharly-YHT]

. .  and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options.  BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . .  downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.

Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . .  and argue the toss later should it be necessary.

How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?

[Mr Larrington]

[Polar Bear]

. .  and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options.  BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . .  downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.

Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . .  and argue the toss later should it be necessary.

How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?

Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.

It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues.  Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.

[rafletcher]

Sometimes I wonder if this sort of moonhowling conspiraloonery is deliberately encouraged to remove credibility from perfectly reasonable privacy arguments.  But that would in itself be conspiraloonery.

It's just scared people with little physics education who've never tried to get a reliable RFID read from something at more than 20cm, lead by grifters.

Agreed.

But the basic principle is true. A cashless society is a surveillance society. Tho microchipping isn't necessary. We can track where you are by following the probes of your phone and tracking the Mac address...

J

Or, as is already done in China, by using facial recognition. I saw something a while back where those using the incorrect communal recycling bin were targeted that way, and punished.

[Wombat]

. .  and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options.  BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . .  downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.

Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . .  and argue the toss later should it be necessary.

How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?

Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.

It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues.  Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.

But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money.  You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working.  Surely their problem, not the customers?

[Pickled Onion]

. .  and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options.  BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . .  downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.

Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . .  and argue the toss later should it be necessary.

How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?

Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.

It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues.  Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.

But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money.  You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working.  Surely their problem, not the customers?

No, Polar Bear is right. A seller is not forced to sell something if you offer a means of payment they can't or don't want to accept. The idea of legal tender only applies to debt, not a contract for sale.

After all, if you went into a shop and they said their credit card machine was out of order, that wouldn't entitle you to walk out with some goods? Parking is no different, if they can't accept the payment they lose the sale, but you can't just take the service, however annoying that might be.

[Polar Bear]

. .  and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options.  BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . .  downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.

Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . .  and argue the toss later should it be necessary.

How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?

Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.

It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues.  Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.

But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money.  You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working.  Surely their problem, not the customers?

Well it is in fact that you cannot pay because they are incapable of accepting your proffered payment method(s).  And if you are unable to pay you are not entitled to avail yourself of said goods or services.

[robgul]

. .  and pay & display parking - yesterday we had a load of aggro trying to pay for parking where the machine didn't take cash, the credit card option was out of order - leaving just a couple of apps as options.  BUT like my chauffeuse, if you didn't have either of the apps you had to download it and then try and use it . .  downloading failed 2 or 3 times and then timed out, back to square one and eventually success - 3 other members of the group had similar experiences.

Have to say if it had been my car I would have left a note in the windscreen saying that the card payment option wasn't working and I didn't have the use of a smartphone . .  and argue the toss later should it be necessary.

How does that work, legal-wise?
Don't companies have to accept legal tender for a service?

Legally, if you cannot pay you should not park.

It is not the law that any business or service has to accept legal tender otherwise those businesses that no longer accept cash would have big issues.  Too many organisations are trying to rid us of cash not least the twats who run the banking system.

But Shirley, its not that you can't pay, its that they fail to take the money.  You have a valid means of payment, a credit/debit card, and that function isn't working.  Surely their problem, not the customers?

Well it is in fact that you cannot pay because they are incapable of accepting your proffered payment method(s).  And if you are unable to pay you are not entitled to avail yourself of said goods or services.

Having read all the responses above I do agree that it's "sort of theft" - BUT a test of reasonableness (and the offer to pay later which would have been on my windscreed note) would seem fair?

. . . a touch of irony in that about 300metres into our ride there was a quiet road where we all could have parked quite legally, safely and responsibly all day without payment. 

[Polar Bear]

To you it seems fair but the conditions of parking have not been met.  You are undoubtedly a trustworthy and honest chap but many are, shall we say, blessed with fewer scruples and possess a lower threshold of integrity.

A friend often regales me with his tale of rocking up at Crask Inn for food and a bed but they didn't have a card machine.  The then owner simply gave him a bill and asked him to send the money on later.  I trust my friend would have done so but equally I expect many would have not for many innocent reasons, but also because some people are less honest.

I also know an otherwise upstanding chap who happily used to not pay to ride the local train and bemoaned the introduction of automatic ticket barriers.  His argument is that if they are too mean or lazy to employ sufficient staff to take ticket money and check tickets they deserve to not receive any ticket money.  Naturally I disagree with his position.

[citoyen]

Well it is in fact that you cannot pay because they are incapable of accepting your proffered payment method(s).  And if you are unable to pay you are not entitled to avail yourself of said goods or services.

That depends on who is offering the goods/operating the service - if it's a private business that's one thing, but if it's, say, a local council run car park, it's questionable whether they can legally refuse to handle any particular form of payment.

However, if the machine is broken and not accepting cash, you are required to pay by another means or be liable to a fine. Although you would probably have a reasonable case for appeal if you refused to pay on the grounds of legitimately relying on being able to pay by cash.

That said, for our local council car parks which now all have ANPR camera-operated barriers, you can't exit without having paid.

I wonder how many councils have knowingly left payment machines broken as a way of avoiding having to handle cash.

[Polar Bear]

Questionable on what basis? 

[rafletcher]

The “council” car parks here aren’t run by the council, but by the private contractor who bid for the business. And I’m with PB. There’s nothing questionable in law about not taking cash as a form of payment for a service provided. Again, none of the car parks I’ve frequented in Herts or Bucks recently take cash any more. Nor those in Kingston-upon-Thames when visiting family. I do agree it’s difficult for some people (and that would include my wife) if the only option is payment via app - the cashless/contactless machines do occasionally break down.

[citoyen]

Questionable on what basis?

The people most likely to be affected by not being able to pay with cash may have a case under the equality act (due to protected characteristics) and the PSED in particular.

[barakta]

Yeah but you'd have to enforce the Equality Act which is hard. Each org would need suing separately. The council would need taking to Judicial Review which is difficult and expensive. You'd need a LEGIT unable to use apps OR contactless user who is also able to do extensive lawyer wrangling and is also able to drive which would be a difficult combo to find.

And then you have to work out how to fund the litigation, fees of £30-100k wouldn't be unlikely with huge costs risks as there's no Qualified One Way Costs Shifting (QOCS) for Equality Act claims (a friend lost her case to Judicial Review this in 2020, cos government "hasn't decided yet"). Friend may relitigate this but has to find spoons and jump the legal aid hoops.

The PSED is barely worth the paper it's printed on.

[citoyen]

Yeah but you'd have to enforce the Equality Act which is hard.

Indeed, as you have already noted elsewhere, so yes, I agree the questionableness of refusing cash is largely hypothetical.

[mrcharly-YHT]

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-66537642

A new policy will state that free cash withdrawals and deposits must be available within one mile for people living in urban areas.

In rural areas, where there are concerns over "cash deserts", the maximum distance is three miles.

Where did they pull those figures, out of their arses?

The nearest shop to me is well over 3 miles away. I'm not exactly in a remote rural location.

What an utterly useless policy.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Most people would probably consider the nearest shop being "well over 3 miles away" a rural location.