Author Topic: GPS after Brexit  (Read 5977 times)

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2020, 11:56:48 pm »
The encrypted signal is not necessarily more accurate but it is less prone to spoofing, i.e. because it is encrypted it is harder for a malicious 3rd party to transmit fake signals and thus fool the receiver. GPS spoofing has been demonstrated and there are several claims that it has been used in military operations against the US, although the validity of these claims is hard to verify.

Both GPS and Galileo are continuing to develop in various ways, e.g. Galileo has plans for a High Accuracy Service (https://www.gsc-europa.eu/galileo/services).

jiberjaber

  • ... Fancy Pants \o/ ...
  • ACME S&M^2
Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2020, 12:32:53 am »
If civilian GPS were turned off now, the only people getting their Nandos from Uber Eats would be the ones who used their what3words address, and we don't want that to happen.

Doesn't they W3W just use GPS after the location is decoded from the 3 words ?  ;)
Regards,

Joergen

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2020, 10:42:44 am »
If civilian GPS were turned off now, the only people getting their Nandos from Uber Eats would be the ones who used their what3words address, and we don't want that to happen.

Doesn't they W3W just use GPS after the location is decoded from the 3 words ?  ;)

Yes exactly , so it’d be reduced to coarse phone network location. For what three words that means it would get Tourette’s.

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2020, 10:47:00 am »
Indeed, it's impossible to "turn off" access to a subset of consumer grade devices. There's simply no mechanism to do that.

I believe that accuracy CAN be degraded during military exercises in certain areas. There are notices to mariners/airmen when this happens.
https://www.ofcom.org.uk/spectrum/information/gps-jamming-exercises

Aha - this article talks about 'jamming' - I would imagine this is a terrestrial transmitter broadcasting spoof GPS signals, which in technical terms drives your car or marine satnav loopy.

Drifting slightly OT, but I see that the current NOTAM in force for jamming around the Epynt / Sennybridge range includes a phone number for 'emergency cease jam' - could always try calling if my Garmin goes haywire when out riding!

GNSS SIGNAL JAMMING TRIAL. GND JAMMERS LOCATED WI 3NM RADIUS PSN
520052N 0033832W (DIXIES CORNER, POWYS, WALES). ACTIVITY MAY AFFECT
ACFT WI 62NM (ALL DIRECTIONS) AND 62NM RADIUS OF SITE. EMERGENCY
CEASE JAM CONTACT 01874 635599 OR 01980 953785. DURING TRIAL GNSS
REC MAY SUFFER INTERMITTENT/TOTAL FAILURE, OR GIVE INCORRECT PSN
INFO. CREWS SHOULD BE AWARE OF THESE LIMITATIONS AND USE ALT MEANS
OF NAV. FOR INFO 01980 953785. 2020-08-0277/AS4

https://notaminfo.com/ukmap

Or just use glonass in the area.

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2020, 10:54:38 am »
I have a waterproof cycling map of my current favourite cycling area.

Sic transit and all that..

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2020, 11:07:25 am »
Maybe one of the side effects of brexit will be to highlight all the idiots who've forgotten or never learned how to navigate with a map.
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.”
― Douglas Adams

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2020, 11:35:56 am »
GPS tells you where you are.  Maps tell you what's there.  One is not a replacement for the other.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2020, 12:28:52 pm »
Maps, both physical and mental, tell you where you are based on context. Most of the time , particularly on land, the function of a gps can be replaced with a map. A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2020, 12:39:16 pm »
That.

Both maps and GPS are multifunctional tools. Maps need a little more work but have the advantage that they still work when the batteries run out or someone turns off the satellites.
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.”
― Douglas Adams

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2020, 12:41:26 pm »
GPS tells you where you are.  Maps tell you what's there.  One is not a replacement for the other.


Post of the day!!!

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2020, 12:43:42 pm »
Maybe one of the side effects of brexit will be to highlight all the idiots who've forgotten or never learned how to navigate with a map.

Because that's such a great bonus. Worth the loss of rights and the wholesale destruction of the country...

Certainly not something we could have achieved with changes to the geography curriculum...


J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2020, 12:49:44 pm »
Maybe one of the side effects of brexit will be to highlight all the idiots who've forgotten or never learned how to navigate with a map.

Because that's such a great bonus. Worth the loss of rights and the wholesale destruction of the country...

Certainly not something we could have achieved with changes to the geography curriculum...


J

Brexit is an unmitigated self inflicted disaster.

It may have the occasional amusing side effect though.
“There is no point in using the word 'impossible' to describe something that has clearly happened.”
― Douglas Adams

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2020, 12:55:02 pm »
That.

Both maps and GPS are multifunctional tools. Maps need a little more work but have the advantage that they still work when the batteries run out or someone turns off the satellites.

The great thing about GPS is that it lets a computer know where you are in term that computers understand (alternative, clunkier, technologies are available).  Which means you can use a computer to read the map for you and successfully navigate by map, even if you missed second year Geography.

And we think that's a bad thing?

Might as well complain that nobody under the age of 50 knows how to use a slide rule.

(I also note that we never seem to see a "maps are better than compasses" debate.  Funny that.  It's almost as if people were irrationally prejudiced against electricity.)
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2020, 12:59:45 pm »
A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

Not true at all. Plenty out there navigating large distances using bread crumb trails on GPS.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2020, 01:01:11 pm »
A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

Not true at all. Plenty out there navigating large distances using bread crumb trails on GPS.

To be fair, a bread crumb trail is a map.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2020, 01:01:31 pm »
A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

I Audaxed for 3 years with exactly that. The old yellow Garmin eTrex H with routes programmed with a routepoint labelled "L@T" or equivalent at each turn. No mapping at all. No breadcrumb trail. Got me 600km across Wales and back for example.

I also did the last 150km of a 200km Audax with no maps displayed on my Edge 705 after some water got into the slot that held the SD card with mapping data. All I had was the pink tracklog for the route and my current position. Took a few turns to get used to but then had no problem following it.

Just a GPS (and no other route info) would be a different prospect though.

I'd be fine with a map though, I spent years poring over them growing up and I'd be quite happy to navigate to somewhere completely new just looking at a map. Being able to look at a map and work out what you should be able to see at any point is a core skill that many people will now be missing.

Them: "We must be here."
Me: "No, we can't be there, otherwise there'd be a church up there on that ridge and there'd be a river over there. We walked past a lake a couple of minutes ago and there's a pub just up the road, of the 3 lakes in this area only one is near a pub and so I'd say we're probably here - if we walk this way for a couple of minutes we should see a junction on the left for Smith's Farm, if we don't see that then we'll stop and re-assess, otherwise we'll be going in the right direction and the footpath will be on the right after a further couple of minutes walk on that same road."
Them: "What? How can you tell that from just looking at a map?"
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2020, 01:11:15 pm »
A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

I Audaxed for 3 years with exactly that. The old yellow Garmin eTrex H with routes programmed with a routepoint labelled "L@T" or equivalent at each turn. No mapping at all. No breadcrumb trail. Got me 600km across Wales and back for example.

I also did the last 150km of a 200km Audax with no maps displayed on my Edge 705 after some water got into the slot that held the SD card with mapping data. All I had was the pink tracklog for the route and my current position. Took a few turns to get used to but then had no problem following it.

Just a GPS (and no other route info) would be a different prospect though.

I'd be fine with a map though, I spent years poring over them growing up and I'd be quite happy to navigate to somewhere completely new just looking at a map. Being able to look at a map and work out what you should be able to see at any point is a core skill that many people will now be missing.

Them: "We must be here."
Me: "No, we can't be there, otherwise there'd be a church up there on that ridge and there'd be a river over there. We walked past a lake a couple of minutes ago and there's a pub just up the road, of the 3 lakes in this area only one is near a pub and so I'd say we're probably here - if we walk this way for a couple of minutes we should see a junction on the left for Smith's Farm, if we don't see that then we'll stop and re-assess, otherwise we'll be going in the right direction and the footpath will be on the right after a further couple of minutes walk on that same road."
Them: "What? How can you tell that from just looking at a map?"
What you describe is a map. A rudimentary one. A gpx unit that simply tells you your current location and nothing else on its own is no good for navigating.

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2020, 01:40:05 pm »
A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

I Audaxed for 3 years with exactly that. The old yellow Garmin eTrex H with routes programmed with a routepoint labelled "L@T" or equivalent at each turn. No mapping at all. No breadcrumb trail. Got me 600km across Wales and back for example.

I also did the last 150km of a 200km Audax with no maps displayed on my Edge 705 after some water got into the slot that held the SD card with mapping data. All I had was the pink tracklog for the route and my current position. Took a few turns to get used to but then had no problem following it.

Just a GPS (and no other route info) would be a different prospect though.

I'd be fine with a map though, I spent years poring over them growing up and I'd be quite happy to navigate to somewhere completely new just looking at a map. Being able to look at a map and work out what you should be able to see at any point is a core skill that many people will now be missing.

Them: "We must be here."
Me: "No, we can't be there, otherwise there'd be a church up there on that ridge and there'd be a river over there. We walked past a lake a couple of minutes ago and there's a pub just up the road, of the 3 lakes in this area only one is near a pub and so I'd say we're probably here - if we walk this way for a couple of minutes we should see a junction on the left for Smith's Farm, if we don't see that then we'll stop and re-assess, otherwise we'll be going in the right direction and the footpath will be on the right after a further couple of minutes walk on that same road."
Them: "What? How can you tell that from just looking at a map?"
What you describe is a map. A rudimentary one. A gpx unit that simply tells you your current location and nothing else on its own is no good for navigating.

It’s not a geographical map / a map representing a geographical area, which is I’m sure what you meant above.  Otherwise your statement about not being able to navigate with a gps without a map is null and void.  Which it is, whichever way you paint it.

For instance I could have a gps and a set of distances and bearings, to navigate by, which you’ll now be calling a map. Indeed it is if you consider it a set of instructions to get from A to B (possibly via C-Z)

I could do the same with a compass and bearings and pacing. Still a map if defined as a set of instructions etc.

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2020, 02:02:38 pm »
Useful app on my phone gives me the OS map reference for current position. Resolves the group arguments about where we are on the map!

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #44 on: August 22, 2020, 02:16:08 pm »
Which means you can use a computer to read the map for you and successfully navigate by map, even if you missed second year Geography.

I can honestly say I have no idea how to read a map. I mean proper map reading with a compass and shit. And I didn't even miss second year Geography!
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #45 on: August 22, 2020, 02:43:10 pm »
A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

I Audaxed for 3 years with exactly that. The old yellow Garmin eTrex H with routes programmed with a routepoint labelled "L@T" or equivalent at each turn. No mapping at all. No breadcrumb trail. Got me 600km across Wales and back for example.

I also did the last 150km of a 200km Audax with no maps displayed on my Edge 705 after some water got into the slot that held the SD card with mapping data. All I had was the pink tracklog for the route and my current position. Took a few turns to get used to but then had no problem following it.

Just a GPS (and no other route info) would be a different prospect though.

I'd be fine with a map though, I spent years poring over them growing up and I'd be quite happy to navigate to somewhere completely new just looking at a map. Being able to look at a map and work out what you should be able to see at any point is a core skill that many people will now be missing.

Them: "We must be here."
Me: "No, we can't be there, otherwise there'd be a church up there on that ridge and there'd be a river over there. We walked past a lake a couple of minutes ago and there's a pub just up the road, of the 3 lakes in this area only one is near a pub and so I'd say we're probably here - if we walk this way for a couple of minutes we should see a junction on the left for Smith's Farm, if we don't see that then we'll stop and re-assess, otherwise we'll be going in the right direction and the footpath will be on the right after a further couple of minutes walk on that same road."
Them: "What? How can you tell that from just looking at a map?"
What you describe is a map. A rudimentary one. A gpx unit that simply tells you your current location and nothing else on its own is no good for navigating.

It’s not a geographical map / a map representing a geographical area, which is I’m sure what you meant above.  Otherwise your statement about not being able to navigate with a gps without a map is null and void.  Which it is, whichever way you paint it.

For instance I could have a gps and a set of distances and bearings, to navigate by, which you’ll now be calling a map. Indeed it is if you consider it a set of instructions to get from A to B (possibly via C-Z)

I could do the same with a compass and bearings and pacing. Still a map if defined as a set of instructions etc.
A gps and a set of bearings and a compass is more than a gps. I was saying a gps that simply gives you your Lon and lat (like the very early ones), on its own, is no good on its own for navigating. Most devices are far more than simply a gps positioning device, they include various levels of mapping and navigation.  Given the choice of just a gps positioning device giving lot and lat or just a map, a map is the better option. Having both is better still.

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2020, 04:43:36 pm »
What you describe is a map. A rudimentary one. A gpx unit that simply tells you your current location and nothing else on its own is no good for navigating.

Your stretching definitions here, but if we're playing that game...

If I was dumped in the middle of the Atlantic ocean in a boat with a GPS device that just told me my lat/lon I'd be able to navigate myself back to the UK much better than if I didn't have the GPS device.

No map required as I know the rough coordinates for the UK so all I need to do is point the boat in a vague direction that makes the GPS co-ordinates tick towards 51N,0E. That counts as a form of navigating to me.

You could even replace the GPS device with an accurate clock (at a known location) and a sextant (and with a bit of training) one would be able to do something similar.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

GPS after Brexit
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2020, 05:04:13 pm »
What you describe is a map. A rudimentary one. A gpx unit that simply tells you your current location and nothing else on its own is no good for navigating.

Your stretching definitions here, but if we're playing that game...

If I was dumped in the middle of the Atlantic ocean in a boat with a GPS device that just told me my lat/lon I'd be able to navigate myself back to the UK much better than if I didn't have the GPS device.

No map required as I know the rough coordinates for the UK so all I need to do is point the boat in a vague direction that makes the GPS co-ordinates tick towards 51N,0E. That counts as a form of navigating to me.

You could even replace the GPS device with an accurate clock (at a known location) and a sextant (and with a bit of training) one would be able to do something similar.
I did say “particularly on land”

Edit: and indicated a wide ranging definition of map when I said “maps both physical and mental”

Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2020, 06:14:35 pm »
A gps on its own without a map (possibly electronic) is not much use for navigation

I Audaxed for 3 years with exactly that. The old yellow Garmin eTrex H with routes programmed with a routepoint labelled "L@T" or equivalent at each turn. No mapping at all. No breadcrumb trail. Got me 600km across Wales and back for example.

I also did the last 150km of a 200km Audax with no maps displayed on my Edge 705 after some water got into the slot that held the SD card with mapping data. All I had was the pink tracklog for the route and my current position. Took a few turns to get used to but then had no problem following it.

Just a GPS (and no other route info) would be a different prospect though.

I'd be fine with a map though, I spent years poring over them growing up and I'd be quite happy to navigate to somewhere completely new just looking at a map. Being able to look at a map and work out what you should be able to see at any point is a core skill that many people will now be missing.

Them: "We must be here."
Me: "No, we can't be there, otherwise there'd be a church up there on that ridge and there'd be a river over there. We walked past a lake a couple of minutes ago and there's a pub just up the road, of the 3 lakes in this area only one is near a pub and so I'd say we're probably here - if we walk this way for a couple of minutes we should see a junction on the left for Smith's Farm, if we don't see that then we'll stop and re-assess, otherwise we'll be going in the right direction and the footpath will be on the right after a further couple of minutes walk on that same road."
Them: "What? How can you tell that from just looking at a map?"
What you describe is a map. A rudimentary one. A gpx unit that simply tells you your current location and nothing else on its own is no good for navigating.

It’s not a geographical map / a map representing a geographical area, which is I’m sure what you meant above.  Otherwise your statement about not being able to navigate with a gps without a map is null and void.  Which it is, whichever way you paint it.

For instance I could have a gps and a set of distances and bearings, to navigate by, which you’ll now be calling a map. Indeed it is if you consider it a set of instructions to get from A to B (possibly via C-Z)

I could do the same with a compass and bearings and pacing. Still a map if defined as a set of instructions etc.
A gps and a set of bearings and a compass is more than a gps. I was saying a gps that simply gives you your Lon and lat (like the very early ones), on its own, is no good on its own for navigating. Most devices are far more than simply a gps positioning device, they include various levels of mapping and navigation.  Given the choice of just a gps positioning device giving lot and lat or just a map, a map is the better option. Having both is better still.

Nope you can set the bearing and distance in the gps. Nothing is in addition to the gps.  Perfectly good for navigating in some circumstances particularly in the mountains. In fact in some circumstances where a traditional map is useless. There are myriads ways of navigating, many not involving a map.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: GPS after Brexit
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2020, 08:03:55 pm »
I wouldn't a breadcrumb trail alone a map. It's an indication of a route but gives no context. It's like a line drawn on a map, with the map removed.
Faster than a walk, slower than a train, often slightly higher than a person. (David Byrne)