Author Topic: Solid white line overtaking rules...  (Read 1158 times)

Solid white line overtaking rules...
« on: August 23, 2020, 08:16:16 pm »
What's to be done about the highway code/law on solid white lines & overtaking?  Apparently it's not working at all.  (thinks of forthcoming highway code review)

I don't know if anyone knows the A321 Wargrave Rd from Henley-o-T following the Thames, but it's a solid double white line extravaganza, and today pretty much every car overtook by crossing the lines.  Not that flat but my av speed 16mph.  No close passes to avoid crossing the line (they'd have had to mown me down for that), but had one kamikaze overtake effort on a blind rise corner!  Normally I'd avoid a road like this but it was direct, and not that busy.

Quote
Rule 129

Double white lines where the line nearest you is solid. This means you MUST NOT cross or straddle it unless it is safe and you need to enter adjoining premises or a side road. You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 26
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-highway-code/general-rules-techniques-and-advice-for-all-drivers-and-riders-103-to-158
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2020, 08:25:24 pm »
Quote
You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

I can see the driver's argument being that as you are riding a pedal cycle either you were in the wrong for doing more than 10mph or the speed difference between 16 and 60mph is such that the driver thought you were doing 10mph.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2020, 08:33:37 pm »
Quote
You may cross the line if necessary, provided the road is clear, to pass a stationary vehicle, or overtake a pedal cycle, horse or road maintenance vehicle, if they are travelling at 10 mph (16 km/h) or less.

I can see the driver's argument being that as you are riding a pedal cycle either you were in the wrong for doing more than 10mph or the speed difference between 16 and 60mph is such that the driver thought you were doing 10mph.

Probably the latter.  Most of the time drivers tend to treat cyclists as if we're doing little more the walking speed, even when we're really not.  I suspect it's because the difference in closing speed is negligable, and it's hard to determine the speed of a two-wheeler by looming at the best of times.

Indeed, when I'm driving, I tend to use cyclist knowledge to help guestmate the speed of distant cyclists (pedalling cadence, type of bike, clothing, road positioning, gradient and quality of road surface, etc.), which you can't reasonably expect most drivers to be able to do.


The law isn't really working, but I can't think of a sensible alternative.  There are always going to be circumstances where it's reasonable for driver to cross solid lines to overtake something slow.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2020, 08:36:11 pm »
The only time I've ever had anyone observe that was on the road from Guardbridge to St Andrews; I knew it was white from shoulder checking.
They passed on one of the few bits that doesn't have a double white line variant after following me at 30ish kmh for ages.

When they passed the reason was obvious.

Traffic Polis.

They were obviously bored, they'd normally put their siren and lights on and blast past.

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2020, 08:43:24 pm »
Cars were also overtaking across the solid lines down hills when I was doing 30mph ish too.  Yes, I think it's a case of cyclist = overtake whatevva.  I normally take the lane on blind corner/rises.
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Pingu

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2020, 08:46:20 pm »
...Yes, I think it's a case of cyclist = overtake whatevva...

This.

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2020, 07:43:15 am »
All things being equal, I’d rather have a car in front of me, where I can see it than behind me, where I can’t.
I am often asked, what does YOAV stand for? It stands for Yoav On A Velo

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2020, 08:27:21 am »
I hear you on that.  If HC read 'can overtake if they are travelling at 20 / 25 mph (or less)', updated you might say, would there be functional difference?  It would legitimise most overtakes of cycles, but would it be safer/less safe/no change?  There does always seem to be a subset of motorists that overtake 'blind' on any roads...

edit
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2020, 08:37:35 am »
I am sure that a year or two ago there was a campaign to raise that 10mph to 20mph in the next edition of the Highway Code.  I've heard nothing about that for some time.  In my view 20mph is quite reasonable.

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2020, 03:48:54 pm »
As a cyclist I much prefer motorists who cross the solid white line and giving me a wide berth over the ones who are sticklers to the letter of the law and pass me with just inches to spare (usually without slowing down sufficiently) just to stay within the lane.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2020, 08:26:06 pm »
I hear you on that.  If HC read 'can overtake if they are travelling at 20 / 25 mph (or less)', updated you might say, would there be functional difference?  It would legitimise most overtakes of cycles, but would it be safer/less safe/no change?  There does always seem to be a subset of motorists that overtake 'blind' on any roads...

edit

If it's safe to carry out an overtake of a horse or vehicle travelling at even 10mph where there's a double white line, you do have to start questioning whether the double white line is appropriate.
They're meant to be used as an aid to assist people in realizing it's unsafe to cross to the other side of the carriageway, not to ban overtaking for the hell of it (there's a sign for that, that also doesn't prohibit parking).


MikeFromLFE

  • Previously known as Millimole
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2020, 08:19:19 am »
I'm going to hijack this thread (just a little) to ask a question I've been unable to get answered, even by the local roads police twitter feed.

Locally there is an undulating road that has single, non-continuous white lines, but has 'no overtaking' signs (black car / red car) over about a mile and a half.
What are the rules about passing cyclists and other 'slow moving' vehicles in this situation?

(Location is Leicestershire, between Anstey and Cropston, Dropped pin
Near Cropston Rd, Leicester
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CJxZAx32AdYUgxXV9 )
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FifeingEejit

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2020, 08:43:29 am »
That sign means no overtaking, without digging into the RTA don't think there's any ifs or buts around the no part like there is for a double white line.

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2020, 08:55:58 am »

If it's safe to carry out an overtake of a horse or vehicle travelling at even 10mph where there's a double white line, you do have to start questioning whether the double white line is appropriate.
They're meant to be used as an aid to assist people in realizing it's unsafe to cross to the other side of the carriageway, not to ban overtaking for the hell of it (there's a sign for that, that also doesn't prohibit parking).
I get what you're saying. But, you will pass something travelling at 10mph in a lot shorter space, than something travelling at 40mph.
That's the part where you have to rely on the driver having a modicum of common sense, not a lack of, when deciding if it's safe to pass

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2020, 09:37:35 am »
The trouble with assuming common sense in drivers is that a significant proportion of them don't have any, or if they do, they lose some or all of it when getting into a car.

I include myself in the latter...
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Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2020, 09:59:46 am »
I'm going to hijack this thread (just a little) to ask a question I've been unable to get answered, even by the local roads police twitter feed.

Locally there is an undulating road that has single, non-continuous white lines, but has 'no overtaking' signs (black car / red car) over about a mile and a half.
What are the rules about passing cyclists and other 'slow moving' vehicles in this situation?

(Location is Leicestershire, between Anstey and Cropston, Dropped pin
Near Cropston Rd, Leicester
https://maps.app.goo.gl/CJxZAx32AdYUgxXV9 )
There's that bridge the Bryan Chapman riders go over (I think I mean the Menai Suspension Bridge), which famously has that sign with a plate underneath saying "Except one cyclist by another". So it would imply that normally it includes cyclists and horse riders – not sure about pedestrians?
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2020, 10:18:09 am »
Getting back to the white lines, if people are ignoring the 10mph rule (or more likely just thinking "double-white lines = no overtaking, but it's a cyclist so rules don't apply") and overtaking widely, as Andy describes, then is it really a problem for the cyclist? I don't think so. It can be a problem for oncoming traffic of course. What needs dealing with from our point of view is "must stay within the white line" overtakes.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

PaulF

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Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2020, 10:21:33 am »
I hear you on that.  If HC read 'can overtake if they are travelling at 20 / 25 mph (or less)', updated you might say, would there be functional difference?  It would legitimise most overtakes of cycles, but would it be safer/less safe/no change?  There does always seem to be a subset of motorists that overtake 'blind' on any roads...

edit


I don't think so. I suspect that most motorists forget most of the Highway Code (or at least the "arcane" parts such as this) or at best remember the version that they needed to be familiar with when they took their test rather than the current version. 

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2020, 10:40:54 am »
I only really found out that the double white line means "do not cross unless..." because of SABRE and IAM not because of anything in my driving practice or tests.


Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2020, 10:58:25 am »
There's that bridge the Bryan Chapman riders go over (I think I mean the Menai Suspension Bridge), which famously has that sign with a plate underneath saying "Except one cyclist by another". So it would imply that normally it includes cyclists and horse riders – not sure about pedestrians?

https://goo.gl/maps/utJaRAoRj6R4YTDV8
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FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2020, 11:07:09 am »
UK Road traffic law is so ridiculously structured that although I can find that the No Overtaking sign is TSRGD diagram 632, I can't find the appropriate  stuff in either the RTA or the regs relating to crossings as to the exact meaning of it (all vehicles, motor vehicles, the vehicle type depicted in the picture)


Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2020, 11:08:16 am »
overtaking widely, as Andy describes, then is it really a problem for the cyclist? I don't think so.

It can become a problem for the cyclist when a vehicle appears round the blind bend that the solid line is warning about...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2020, 11:22:22 am »
There's that bridge the Bryan Chapman riders go over (I think I mean the Menai Suspension Bridge), which famously has that sign with a plate underneath saying "Except one cyclist by another". So it would imply that normally it includes cyclists and horse riders – not sure about pedestrians?

https://goo.gl/maps/utJaRAoRj6R4YTDV8
:thumbsup:
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2020, 09:28:11 am »
In any event my guess is that the Highway code is unlikely to be changed re.  the 10 mph rule, so vehicles will just continue to overtake cyclists travelling at any speed. Most of the time it will be ok, but probably the faster the cyclist the less safe the overtake; the real problem will be when the 'blind bend gamble' doesn't come off - as anywhere.  A few weeks ago near Swinford Toll, I saw a van have to very quickly abort an overtake a cyclist, due to oncoming car.  Far safer to simply hang back for the whole of the solid white line section.  The fact remains that most drivers will break the RTAct here.  How would the police proove the cyclist wasn't doing less than 10mph anyway....
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Solid white line overtaking rules...
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2020, 09:53:13 am »
The police would be overtaking too...
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