Author Topic: Colour vision  (Read 1317 times)

Colour vision
« on: August 25, 2020, 12:57:43 pm »
My colour vision is pretty bad. I have joked in the past that it is a disability (I say 'joked'; I'm satisfied that it meets the definition, I just never thought of litigating it), but I had two examples in the last two days that made me feel it acutely (again - it comes and goes).

Yesterday my boss sent me a document to review. He'd tracked his changes in lilac and turquoise. I hadn't a prayer.

Today the new BT halo hub turned up. To set it up I have to be able to distinguish orange from red from green: no chance. And blue from purple, again: not a hope.

It's my week without the boys, so there's no-one home to ask.

And someone has turned my tinnitus up to 11.

 :facepalm:
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2020, 01:06:01 pm »
Today the new BT halo hub turned up. To set it up I have to be able to distinguish orange from red from green: no chance. And blue from purple, again: not a hope.
Would a phone camera app that distingushes colours help?

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2020, 01:18:11 pm »
Problem appreciated. I'm not even sure what colours lilac and turquoise are.

I have now got my work colleagues trained not to use colours to indicate anything. It takes a while, though, and occasionally they forget. Just send the document back with a note to make the changes distinguishable.

I can usually tell red from green LEDs simply on brightness - I find green brighter. Orange from green, though - not a chance.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2020, 01:32:26 pm »


Yesterday my boss sent me a document to review. He'd tracked his changes in lilac and turquoise. I hadn't a prayer.

 :facepalm:

If he's used the track changes feature, rather than just manually using different colour text, you can set what colour you view it as at you end. Or use the review viewing pane

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2020, 02:06:50 pm »
Today the new BT halo hub turned up. To set it up I have to be able to distinguish orange from red from green: no chance. And blue from purple, again: not a hope.
Would a phone camera app that distingushes colours help?
Is there such a thing? A well-meaning colleague got me to buy some correcting glasses of the 'net. They turned everything red! I felt like a Terminator!
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2020, 02:11:18 pm »
Yesterday my boss sent me a document to review. He'd tracked his changes in lilac and turquoise. I hadn't a prayer.

 :facepalm:

If he's used the track changes feature, rather than just manually using different colour text, you can set what colour you view it as at you end. Or use the review viewing pane

I'm struggling to find that fix. I'm inclined to hand the problem back to him anyway: 13 years we've worked together. You'd think he'd have got used to it by now.

Turquoise and lilac - I ask you!
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2020, 02:12:56 pm »
There are apps like: https://colorblindpal.com/ and I assume there are lots of others since it is an obvious way to use the technology, but I'm not colour blind so I have no experience of how well they work.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2020, 02:15:04 pm »
Today the new BT halo hub turned up. To set it up I have to be able to distinguish orange from red from green: no chance. And blue from purple, again: not a hope.

Bi-colour[1] LEDs are a work of Stan.  I've been known to modify battery chargers and the like to turn them into two physically separate LEDs so I can tell what's going on.

Because of the way colour vision works, point sources such as blinkenlights are particularly hard to determine the colour of, and (as discussed in a previous thread) even with 'normal' colour vision, people often disagree on what colour a given wavelength actually is.

When I design things, I try to never use colour as a sole indicator of anything.  I might have a row of different coloured blinkenlights on a widget, but you can always tell the difference between the red power light and the orange network activity light, because the power light's the one on the left with 'Power' written under it, and the network one's the one on the right with 'Network' written under it.  If I'm designing a document or graphic, I'll make it make sense when rendered in greyscale.  It's not hard.  Indeed, it always feels like you'd have to go out of your way to do otherwise.

(Flashing complicated patterns is a lesser work of Stan, because it's time-consuming to interpret and hard to label, but at least it's possible to decode them eventually.)

What I really don't grok, but have observed countless times in the real world, is that colour-vision-people, when made to describe the status of a row of well-labelled blinkenlights as above, will say things like "The orange light's flashing" instead of "The network light's flashing" (at which point you're left scrolling through the manual to work out which one's orange).  Happens all the time.  They won't ask for the big chopping board, they'll ask for the red one.  It's like colour overrides both reading and semantics in their fuzzy little rainbow brains.


[1] Two LEDs in one housing, giving three possible colours, depending on which are switched on.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2020, 02:27:26 pm »
They won't ask for the big chopping board, they'll ask for the red one.  It's like colour overrides both reading and semantics in their fuzzy little rainbow brains.

I resemble this remark!  I'm really bad at visuals, the only thing that stands out is colour for me. Means I often click on wrong icons for things cos they're a similar colour to my intended thing.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2020, 02:33:45 pm »
Well, I think that colour works very well for a lot of people, and trumps a lot of other things. It's only us weirdos that need a different label, because colour doesn't work for us.

I sometimes wish I could see colours the way most people do, and then I feel like Rogue in The Last Stand.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2020, 02:42:14 pm »
Yesterday my boss sent me a document to review. He'd tracked his changes in lilac and turquoise. I hadn't a prayer.

 :facepalm:

If he's used the track changes feature, rather than just manually using different colour text, you can set what colour you view it as at you end. Or use the review viewing pane

I'm struggling to find that fix. I'm inclined to hand the problem back to him anyway: 13 years we've worked together. You'd think he'd have got used to it by now.

Turquoise and lilac - I ask you!
#

Track changes options then advanced options (or type track changes options into the search bar). That lets you select colours for different people.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2020, 02:56:47 pm »
Yesterday my boss sent me a document to review. He'd tracked his changes in lilac and turquoise. I hadn't a prayer.

 :facepalm:

If he's used the track changes feature, rather than just manually using different colour text, you can set what colour you view it as at you end. Or use the review viewing pane

I'm struggling to find that fix. I'm inclined to hand the problem back to him anyway: 13 years we've worked together. You'd think he'd have got used to it by now.

Turquoise and lilac - I ask you!
#

Track changes options then advanced options (or type track changes options into the search bar). That lets you select colours for different people.
Does this work retrospectively? Are you saying I can change the colours he's used?
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2020, 03:00:04 pm »
No one sees colours the same, since they're in part perception (as part of the visual model, you're not actually seeing*) and in part down to the receptors available and the nervous wiring. The main reason I'm not an astronaut right now is that I couldn't do any of the coloured dot tests. Space being full of coloured dots.

Men tend to be crap when it comes to colour because some of the genes (primarily red-green) are carried on the X-chromosome and women can compensate (but it's a lot more complicated). Other genes responsible (around 60 at the last count) are splattered around 19 other chromosomes.

A small proportion of women can see extra colours (they're tetrachromats and presumably responsible for the huge gamut of lipstick colours). I remember when we had this place decorated and my wife thrusting paint colour charts at me. What about this one? The fact that they all genuinely looked much the same really didn't excuse me. What about that one, then?

I use an app called Sim Daltonism that lets you select from the various forms of colour blindness and see how they affect the colours on screen.

*what seems a continuous and rich model of the world around you is built from an extrapolation of discrete visual sampling, your eyes don't move fluidly, they saccade, and that data is used to build and update the perceptual model.
Support the Great Surrey Bear Census 2020

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2020, 03:14:17 pm »
They won't ask for the big chopping board, they'll ask for the red one.  It's like colour overrides both reading and semantics in their fuzzy little rainbow brains.

I resemble this remark!  I'm really bad at visuals, the only thing that stands out is colour for me. Means I often click on wrong icons for things cos they're a similar colour to my intended thing.
Well, I think that colour works very well for a lot of people, and trumps a lot of other things. It's only us weirdos that need a different label, because colour doesn't work for us.
I think it would be odd if we did it differently, for the vast majority who have "normal colour vision". There are so many things which are similarly sized but distinct in colour. Getting dressed, you might decide between a blue shirt and a red one; both shirts are the same size because they both fit you. You might decide on the green bike rather than the white one; both are similarly sized because both fit you. Buying a Brompton you have a choice of many colours but they're all the same size. Flowers in gardens and birds in trees are more easily distinguished by colour than size. And so on.

Sticking to the conventional rainbow, we have six or seven distinct colours, and that's before we consider the half-tones and semi-shades like, erm, lilac and turquoise. Whereas for size we have big, small and, ooh, medium. Joseph had a technicolour dreamcoat not a multisized dreamcoat.

The names and boundaries of the colours are, as ian says, both cultural and personal (yeah, the Russian siny and goluboy where we benighted English have only blue), but the same applies to size, and colour is still more variegated.
Let's go for a ride to the Old Sawmill, Valentina, Buzz and you.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2020, 03:35:48 pm »
There are apps like: https://colorblindpal.com/ and I assume there are lots of others since it is an obvious way to use the technology, but I'm not colour blind so I have no experience of how well they work.
That's interesting. I'm still not sure I'm seeing what other people see (whatever that might be), but several of the modes seemed to make some colours more distinct to me than (I know) they usually are.

Thank you!
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2020, 03:40:00 pm »
Assuming there's anyone on the internet who isn't familiar with The Dress, it's worth checking out. It reveals a lot about how we model colour perception.

Colour is very complicated. Colours themselves can be pigmental (i.e a pigment that absorbs and reflects certain frequencies) or structural* (a physical refraction or diffraction of incident light). The two can interact (so stripy things can be perceived as different colours). It'll all depend on that incident light (which is why things are different colours under sodium lamps). The receptor pigments in your eyes have varying frequency responses curves.

*this explains blue/green/grey eyes. Humans, and all mammals, only have two** pigments – black-brown eumelanin and red-brown pheomelanin. There's no actual blue in blue eyes.

**slight lie, we have another, near-black neuromelanin, which as the name suggests is present in the brain, hence the substantia nigra.
Support the Great Surrey Bear Census 2020

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2020, 04:12:13 pm »
Today the new BT halo hub turned up. To set it up I have to be able to distinguish orange from red from green: no chance. And blue from purple, again: not a hope.
Would a phone camera app that distingushes colours help?
Is there such a thing? A well-meaning colleague got me to buy some correcting glasses of the 'net. They turned everything red! I felt like a Terminator!
Colour-correcting glasses can actually work (to an extent) - I use a pair! I have a rather rare form of colour-blindness, and a lot of playing with filters and Ishihara tests found me a filter which changes my colour discrimination from appalling to merely bad. I suspect anything you buy on the internet will be designed for the commonest form. If you have a different form they will be worse than useless.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2020, 04:26:27 pm »
It's like colour overrides both reading and semantics in their fuzzy little rainbow brains.
Yes. I used to have a boss who was red/green colour blind. Every review meeting I'd present him with a chart done up in splendid green (for the stuff that worked) and red (for the stuff that didn't). Every meeting he'd ask us to translate. He never succeeded in getting us not to do that...

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2020, 05:33:08 pm »
The names and boundaries of the colours are, as ian says, both cultural and personal (yeah, the Russian siny and goluboy where we benighted English have only blue), but the same applies to size, and colour is still more variegated.

Reminds me of Gaelic, Is that red as in Ruadh or red as in dearg

and then there's Blue; gorm
and Green; gorm but also uaine and glas

Suppose the scottish and irish landscapes do need to describe a lot of greens from sea green through grass green to bright green

https://omniglot.com/language/colours/gaelic.htm

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2020, 05:45:21 pm »

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2020, 05:46:26 pm »
The names and boundaries of the colours are, as ian says, both cultural and personal (yeah, the Russian siny and goluboy where we benighted English have only blue), but the same applies to size, and colour is still more variegated.

Reminds me of Gaelic, Is that red as in Ruadh or red as in dearg

and then there's Blue; gorm
and Green; gorm but also uaine and glas

Suppose the scottish and irish landscapes do need to describe a lot of greens from sea green through grass green to bright green

https://omniglot.com/language/colours/gaelic.htm

Don’t the Scottish have 50 words for shades of grey? :P

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2020, 05:52:10 pm »
The names and boundaries of the colours are, as ian says, both cultural and personal (yeah, the Russian siny and goluboy where we benighted English have only blue), but the same applies to size, and colour is still more variegated.

Reminds me of Gaelic, Is that red as in Ruadh or red as in dearg

and then there's Blue; gorm
and Green; gorm but also uaine and glas

Suppose the scottish and irish landscapes do need to describe a lot of greens from sea green through grass green to bright green

https://omniglot.com/language/colours/gaelic.htm
And there's Japanese with ao, midori and gurinu, which are all in English terms green. We could probably go in, if we had the knowledge and the time, and find examples for almost every language on earth. Perhaps we should.  :D
Let's go for a ride to the Old Sawmill, Valentina, Buzz and you.

Re: Colour vision
« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2020, 05:53:01 pm »
The names and boundaries of the colours are, as ian says, both cultural and personal (yeah, the Russian siny and goluboy where we benighted English have only blue), but the same applies to size, and colour is still more variegated.

Reminds me of Gaelic, Is that red as in Ruadh or red as in dearg

and then there's Blue; gorm
and Green; gorm but also uaine and glas

Suppose the scottish and irish landscapes do need to describe a lot of greens from sea green through grass green to bright green

https://omniglot.com/language/colours/gaelic.htm
And there's Japanese with ao, midori and gurinu, which are all in English terms green.

Ah but then we have Emerald which is a shade of green, we have artichoke another shade of green etc.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2020, 05:55:09 pm »
Yes, a shade of green, whereas ao and midori are, AIUI, separate colours. If you say something's emerald and I say it's jade, we can argue over this but both agree it's green of some sort. Whereas if something's ao, it can't be midori. AIUI...
Let's go for a ride to the Old Sawmill, Valentina, Buzz and you.

ian

  • feat. Undead Jess & Finestre, Queen of Hell
Re: Colour vision
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2020, 05:57:00 pm »
Today the new BT halo hub turned up. To set it up I have to be able to distinguish orange from red from green: no chance. And blue from purple, again: not a hope.
Would a phone camera app that distingushes colours help?
Is there such a thing? A well-meaning colleague got me to buy some correcting glasses of the 'net. They turned everything red! I felt like a Terminator!
Colour-correcting glasses can actually work (to an extent) - I use a pair! I have a rather rare form of colour-blindness, and a lot of playing with filters and Ishihara tests found me a filter which changes my colour discrimination from appalling to merely bad. I suspect anything you buy on the internet will be designed for the commonest form. If you have a different form they will be worse than useless.

They don't actually change your colour perception, they filter out some of the intermediate wavelengths between red-green or green-blue. So you're actually getting more contrast at the expense of seeing less colour overall.

Few younger people, of course, realise that the world was monochrome till 1973 when they first debuted beige, the first ever colour (at the time a lot people thought that colours wouldn't catch on) but it took the early 70s by storm. It was so popular that they followed it with orange in 1975 and red a year later. An experimental blue was first sighted in the wild in 1982, though quite a few people believe that was an inadvertent release from the labs. The precise debut of green is still debated even today. Of course, once released, colours rapidly started to breed.
Support the Great Surrey Bear Census 2020