Author Topic: Meaning of road closure signs?  (Read 1536 times)

Kim

  • Timelord
Meaning of road closure signs?
« on: August 26, 2020, 10:16:33 pm »
I had a chat with a man in orange hi-vis this afternoon, as I was thwarted by an extremely closed road (damn you HS2).  I explained that, as a cyclist, it's usually worth continuing past road closed signs to have a look, because the majority of the time you can wheel your bike past the obstruction.  He told me that "ROAD CLOSED" just means to motor vehicles, and the "NO THROUGH ROAD" sign means it's blocked for everyone.

I'd never heard of that before.  I always assumed that the white on red "NO THROUGH ROAD" sign was just a temporary version of *googles* the Diagram 816 one, which is clearly for vehicular traffic (with an optional exception for cyclists), not pedestrians.

Can anyone provide a reference?  Google is failing me...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2020, 11:09:11 pm »
The only they-really-mean-it CLOSED road I've encountered is this one, also for HS2:
https://goo.gl/maps/NW1R6R5xMRCgfVwu5

It's been obliterated under a construction site for ~10 years. Still has the normal ROAD CLOSED sign.

I've also noticed that many closed roads would be passable by a commonplace four-wheeled horseless carriage as often they've only dug up a small bit of the road.

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2020, 11:47:00 pm »
My understanding is that the signs mean pretty much what they say and that Road Closed means from that point and No Through means the road is still open up until it becomes Road Closed.
They're all pretty ambiguous, somewhere there should be a notice of the order that granted the closure.  When you apply for one you have to specify who it applies to.  You then have to employ an approved traffic management company to organise diversions and consult with stakeholders. If the temporary order applies to pedestrians and/or cyclists then the same applies and diversions have to be provided for them. You're not going to include them unless you have to, so orders are usually for vehicles which the legislation defines as motor vehicles.  My experience with this is dated, it's also for closing roads for events rather than roadworks, but it was the same forms and I'm pretty sure the same regulation. 

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2020, 12:08:55 am »
It really would make life easier if there *was* an 'including pedestrians' variant of the "ROAD CLOSED" sign, assuming that people used it consistently.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #4 on: August 27, 2020, 09:11:21 am »
The only they-really-mean-it CLOSED road I've encountered is this one, also for HS2:
https://goo.gl/maps/NW1R6R5xMRCgfVwu5

It's been obliterated under a construction site for ~10 years. Still has the normal ROAD CLOSED sign.

I'm not sure that it's quite that long. I did lift both myself and bike over two 2m fences up there when they first started, but have mostly given up now and go around.

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #5 on: August 27, 2020, 09:42:51 am »
It really would make life easier if there *was* an 'including pedestrians' variant of the "ROAD CLOSED" sign, assuming that people used it consistently.
Such signs are available, though I don't know the regulations for them and consistency is lacking.  Here's a local one where the contractor has removed any doubt, they've also signed the cycle diversion.
Roadworks by Paul, on Flickr

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2020, 10:29:31 am »
He told me that "ROAD CLOSED" just means to motor vehicles
About 10 years ago I went past a Road Closed sign near Stratford upon Avon to find the reason was work on a railway bridge under which the road ran.  A chap there asked me to wait while a piece of machinery finished its immediate job, and told me that they have to maintain pedestrian access so it was no problem my appearing.  If no access had been allowed there would have been a several mile diversion to get to the next crossing of the railway, so I could see the reasoning.

I like that multiple conflicting sign above - "strictly no pedestrian or cyclist access" and " access to frontages only".

Some years ago, on tour in France, I ignored the usual road closed countdown boards to find that the closure was due to work on a level crossing where there was a big sign saying "no pedestrians either".  I almost imagine the invisible ink saying "yah boo sucks, we told you so!"

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2020, 11:02:44 am »
This might be some sort of guideline or rule of practice for temporary signs at roadworks (though I'm not sure I've ever seen one of those saying "No through road") but certainly the standard No through road sign (the red and white T on blue background) often doesn't apply to pedestrians and cyclists. Though equally often it does. Sometimes there's a sign underneath telling you "Except..." but often there isn't, even though you can get through. Perhaps the extra plates are only used if the sign went up after a certain date?
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2020, 11:27:21 am »
I thought a TRO could apply to vehicles or pedestrians or both. Most are just vehicular. When ridden a bicycle is a vehicle, when being wheeled by a pedestrian, it is not.

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2020, 11:30:30 am »
Don’t know but there’s been three road closed that have meant me turning round.

A bridge was out and no obvious way to get round.
Pylons near a substation were having cables replaced and lots of cables across road at varying heights as they attached and tensioned new ones.
Fencing that had been placed across full width of road with a trench beyond.  High banks with no obvious way into fields to bypass. This latter one there was a parallel lane not far away so didn’t try too hard to be fair.

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2020, 11:37:47 am »
There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2020, 11:47:14 am »
There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.

Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.

We also have "bus gates" which use a *blue* bus and bike sign as a motor vehicle prohibition. Motorists are completely oblivious to them. I have some sympathy from a human interface design POV.

I'm not sure that it's quite that long. I did lift both myself and bike over two 2m fences up there when they first started, but have mostly given up now and go around.

2018-2026, so not far off. If you did that now you'd probably fall into a very big hole.
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2020/06/11/new-photos-show-hs2s-southern-tunnel-portal/

Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2020, 11:54:40 am »
I know the “no entry except cycles” was an illegal sign and was only allowed by the department for transport for limited test studies monitoring its effectiveness. That was a few years ago.it could be

1. No entry except for cycles are now allowed by dft
2. These are “test schemes”
3. The local authority is ignoring the fact they are not allowed.

Edit. It is 1. Changed in 2012. Time flies.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2020, 11:55:07 am »
There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.

Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.
I think the law was changed to allow this a few years ago. Previously, it would have had to be the no motor vehicles sign as Davef describes. Because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.

Quote
We also have "bus gates" which use a *blue* bus and bike sign as a motor vehicle prohibition. Motorists are completely oblivious to them. I have some sympathy from a human interface design POV.
We've got a couple of those, installed just a month or so ago. Presumably there's some legal reason they can't use a no motor vehicles sign or even better, a no entry except (buses, taxis, m/cs, pedal cycles) sign. I suppose it's because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs. Though part of the obliviousness in this case is because there's nowhere to turn round once you've seen the signs even if you do understand them; because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #14 on: August 27, 2020, 12:00:17 pm »
The “no motor vehicles” sign, also known as “the flying motorbike” or “no jumping motorbikes over cars” sign.

telstarbox

  • Loving the lanes
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2020, 12:09:52 pm »
The new gates in Lewisham have the "no cars" sign (black car in red circle) because they allow motorbikes and buses, as well as cycles through.
2019 🏅 R1000 and B1000

ElyDave

  • Royal and Ancient Polar Bear Society member 263583
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2020, 12:25:51 pm »
There was fuss and bother locally a couple of years ago when they put in a contra flow cycle lane down a one way street. It meant they had to remove the “no entry” signs and change them to “no motor vehicles”, which then meant cars driven by stupid people turned in as well. I am not sure of the current status.

Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.
I think the law was changed to allow this a few years ago. Previously, it would have had to be the no motor vehicles sign as Davef describes. Because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.

Quote
We also have "bus gates" which use a *blue* bus and bike sign as a motor vehicle prohibition. Motorists are completely oblivious to them. I have some sympathy from a human interface design POV.
We've got a couple of those, installed just a month or so ago. Presumably there's some legal reason they can't use a no motor vehicles sign or even better, a no entry except (buses, taxis, m/cs, pedal cycles) sign. I suppose it's because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs. Though part of the obliviousness in this case is because there's nowhere to turn round once you've seen the signs even if you do understand them; because sometimes sign makers don't think about the people who have to interpret the signs.

The blue is a permissioning in this case, or ordering as in minimum speed limit as I understand it.  Similarly used in H&S Signs - Green = Safe (emergency exit), Red triangle = Verboten (no confined space entry without permit), Blue circle = Do this (Eye protection), yellow triangle = Hazard (hot surface)
“Procrastination is the thief of time, collar him.” –Charles Dickens

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2020, 01:11:01 pm »
The blue is a permissioning
Yes, what's unclear is why the TRO had to be framed as a permission rather than an exclusion. I'm sure there is a reason!

The equally if not more important question is why so few people recognise the signs.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2020, 01:15:41 pm »
Such signs are available, though I don't know the regulations for them and consistency is lacking.

I've seen such signs, though as you say, there's no consistency in how they're used.

From next week, the road I live on will be closed every night for three weeks for resurfacing. Remains to be seen how this will affect me getting home from the station in the evening. Resurfacing means the whole width of the road will be dug up, and there's no footway to get round it on.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2020, 04:41:44 pm »
Such signs are available, though I don't know the regulations for them and consistency is lacking.

I've seen such signs, though as you say, there's no consistency in how they're used.

From next week, the road I live on will be closed every night for three weeks for resurfacing. Remains to be seen how this will affect me getting home from the station in the evening. Resurfacing means the whole width of the road will be dug up, and there's no footway to get round it on.
I recon they'll do one half of the roadway at a time.
You may have to tip-toe across the freshly-laid tarmac on the cooler half  ;)

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2020, 05:26:59 pm »
I thought a TRO could apply to vehicles or pedestrians or both. Most are just vehicular. When ridden a bicycle is a vehicle, when being wheeled by a pedestrian, it is not.

The TRO can list the classes of vehicle the road is closed to, temporary signs are much less regulated than normal ones, yet still there are plenty of howlers out there in normal signs.

Plenty round here just use an "except cycles" sign with the traditional no entry. There's probably some subtle legal distinction.

No entry "Except" is a newish concept, there is significant difference in meaning between a no entry sign and a no motor vehicles, IIRC the first applies only to that point in space, where as the later applies to the whole road, which is considerably more useful where you want to restrict a roadway to certain vehicles, e.g. bus stances outside a hopsital, what I've never got is why "No Motorvehicles except cycles" is an accepted variant.


Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2020, 01:54:31 pm »
Going back to Kim’s original experience, HS2 are different to Local Authorities ( with whom they can be at odds), utility companies etc. They have a record of blocking rights of way using specialist “ security” operatives, using very heavy handed tactics. The view of HS2 Ltd is often “ we’re the Government, we’re above the usual laws”. 

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2020, 02:16:52 pm »
Going back to Kim’s original experience, HS2 are different to Local Authorities ( with whom they can be at odds), utility companies etc. They have a record of blocking rights of way using specialist “ security” operatives, using very heavy handed tactics. The view of HS2 Ltd is often “ we’re the Government, we’re above the usual laws”.

HS2 was authorised by passing primary legislation that overrides the usual laws, so they're not wrong.

(well they might still be wrong on the details of what they're allowed to do)

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2020, 08:03:57 pm »
I rode past a "ROAD CLOSED" with "NO ACCESS TO $FOOBAR ROAD FOR PEDESTRIANS AND CYCLISTS" sign earlier.   :thumbsup:
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Meaning of road closure signs?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2020, 03:16:12 pm »
We rode through 3 road closed signs today and ony once dismounted and resorted to a pavement.