Author Topic: AFib watches  (Read 768 times)

T42

  • Old fool in a hurry
AFib watches
« on: September 26, 2020, 10:40:19 am »
My esteemed cardiologist wants me to get a watch capable of detecting atrial fibrillation and sending a 30-sec ECG to my phone. He had one in mind but didn't say which, so I've been a-googling, and discovered that they go from 15€* to north of 450€*.  Discarding the extremes, I'm left with a slather of items in between, whereof this looks the most acceptable:

https://www.withings.com/fr/en/move-ecg

As I've observed elsewhere, my watch spends most of its life on the desk or the bedside table, and since the ECG bit only works when 50 bpm < heart rate < 100 bpm I'll not be able to use it at the most entertaining moments of my life, which is a shame.

Anyway, if anyone has experience of these things and can recommend one, do tell. TIA.

* and the accompanying app will doubtless send all my data to evil nefarii, install three times more cruft than it says it will and invite in a bunch more.

I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2020, 10:46:52 am »
I use a Kardia device which does a full 6-point ECG, but it’s a deliberate event not a constant monitor. I believe the new Apple Watch can do it, and I’d probably go for that as it covers so much of what I use my phone for.

The HR limits are simply the range in which AR will be detected, I believe, not a limit beyond which you must not go!

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2020, 12:03:19 pm »
The new Apple Watch and the model before do it.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

IJL

Re: AFib watches
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2020, 12:33:08 pm »
its not a watch but we use these Kardia gadgets at work, they send a rhythm strip to your phone that you can send on by email.

https://store.alivecor.co.uk/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwzbv7BRDIARIsAM-A6-3ZTSfaPS3rGDY7FVhTxpUkqTRGunjtibOMRfBXfe595fXEvxYb71AaAqrfEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

They work well and give a good readable strip, the automatic analysis on the app is pretty good (ECG analysis on even expensive ECG's is often crap)

T42

  • Old fool in a hurry
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2020, 01:38:56 pm »
I should have mentioned that my phone uses Adenoid and I've just bought a new one.  I don't particularly want to get into the Apple world.

I think 100 bpm is the upper threshold at which wrist-based heart-rate devices fail.  I had a FitBit that would go wawa at around that. OTOH FitBits going wawa is pretty well standard.

I've heard good things of the AliveCor devices, particularly the 6L. I'll have a mull: a watch would be faster to deploy. BTW, they're going at £149 in the UK, which works out at 164€. Cheapest I can find here is 199€ and AliveCor don't deliver to EU.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2020, 01:59:04 pm »
The Kardia 6L is the version I use, and it works well. Doesn't like an ectopic heartbeat (which is the reason I bought it) but the traces are good.

My Garmin Venu (and the Vivoactive devices which preceded it) have no problem tracking HR up to 180-ish, which is my max. The correlation with a strap-based HR is pretty much total.

T42

  • Old fool in a hurry
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2020, 03:21:41 pm »
Those'd be wrist-based, then? Oh well, so much for that hypothesis.

I'm having trouble imagining deploying a Karia 6L when I'm in full winter fig w. bib tights, overshoes etc. By the time I'd got through to an ankle the incident would be long past - either that, or I'd be too weak to fight my way in.  Cool gadget, though.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2020, 04:08:22 pm »
Yes, it is a cool gadget, but unless you are having an ongoing indecent incident, it probably won't record acute anomalies at all...

As I understand it, you can send the ECG to a cardiologist and it will be useful, but the only flags it gives are for Tachy- and Brady- cardia.

I've been flagged a few times for Brady, which is below 50
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Mrs Pingu

  • Who ate all the pies? Me
    • Twitter
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2020, 04:17:35 pm »
Wow, welcome to the future. These things are cool. That Withings watch is surprisingly cheap.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

T42

  • Old fool in a hurry
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2020, 05:19:41 pm »
Yes, it is a cool gadget, but unless you are having an ongoing indecent incident, it probably won't record acute anomalies at all...

As I understand it, you can send the ECG to a cardiologist and it will be useful, but the only flags it gives are for Tachy- and Brady- cardia.

I've been flagged a few times for Brady, which is below 50

Well, my cardiologist told me that he could point me at an ECG watch at around 120€, and that if I got one I wouldn't have to submit to a bothersome holter. He didn't say which watch but it's the only one I've seen in that ballpark, so I reckon that's it. And if he thinks it's OK, who am I to quibble?
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2020, 02:23:22 pm »
Feline's Apple Watch has the ECG facility, so when I started having palpitations recently we tried that out. It confirmed something wasn't right, but it was "inconclusive".

It's supposed to be able to detect Afib but isn't validated for any other abnormalities. Haven't shared it with anyone as I was able to get a 12-lead ECG within a couple of days at the local GP surgery.


IJL

Re: AFib watches
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2020, 08:51:55 am »
Quote
It's supposed to be able to detect Afib but isn't validated for any other abnormalities. Haven't shared it with anyone as I was able to get a 12-lead ECG within a couple of days at the local GP surgery.

I have used lots of different ECG's over the years and in general the software that analyses the ECG is not great, AF is a fairly simple thing for the software to identify, (irregular and no P waves) everything else is more complicated, I have used ECG's costing many thousands that think everyone has serous issues when in fact the ECG is normal.  Anything that can save and print an ECG or more realistically a rhythm  strip would be the a good choice. The kardia device in my earlier post can do this, other may be able to do so as well but the Kardia is the only one i have used

T42

  • Old fool in a hurry
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2020, 04:58:24 pm »
I have used ECG's costing many thousands that think everyone has serous issues when in fact the ECG is normal.

I think you're talking about my cardiologist.  I turned in a perfectly normal stress test: "it's only 80% accurate".  Another time: "there are only two kinds of people, those with heart problems and those who don't know it yet".

Hit me with your rhythm strip, doc.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #13 on: September 30, 2020, 02:13:32 am »
I have used ECG's costing many thousands that think everyone has serous issues when in fact the ECG is normal.

I think you're talking about my cardiologist.  I turned in a perfectly normal stress test: "it's only 80% accurate".  Another time: "there are only two kinds of people, those with heart problems and those who don't know it yet".

Hit me with your rhythm strip, doc.

A couple of years back, I was diagnosed with an ectopic heartbeat on a regular aircrew medical. The CAA gets a bit twitchy about anything to do with hearts, so I was instructed to get a holter  test and repeat it annually. My cardiologist (who has known me since I had a bout of viral pericarditis a few years ago) inspected the result and declared himself ‘spectacularly uninterested’; in other words what he saw was normal for an ageing but fit individual with a history of challenging exercise (his words. I was quite chuffed!). ‘Athletes heart syndrome’ is not confined to real athletes; regular fitness dudes get it too. Who knew? 

T42

  • Old fool in a hurry
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2020, 08:14:05 am »
I have used ECG's costing many thousands that think everyone has serous issues when in fact the ECG is normal.

I think you're talking about my cardiologist.  I turned in a perfectly normal stress test: "it's only 80% accurate".  Another time: "there are only two kinds of people, those with heart problems and those who don't know it yet".

Hit me with your rhythm strip, doc.

A couple of years back, I was diagnosed with an ectopic heartbeat on a regular aircrew medical. The CAA gets a bit twitchy about anything to do with hearts, so I was instructed to get a holter  test and repeat it annually. My cardiologist (who has known me since I had a bout of viral pericarditis a few years ago) inspected the result and declared himself ‘spectacularly uninterested’; in other words what he saw was normal for an ageing but fit individual with a history of challenging exercise (his words. I was quite chuffed!). ‘Athletes heart syndrome’ is not confined to real athletes; regular fitness dudes get it too. Who knew?

Years ago I gave myself a dose of extra-thuddy athlete's heart a couple of days before a cardiac stress test. The cardiologist (different one) told me that the ECG traces for that and for "très grave" stenosis were practically identical and scheduled me for a batch of other tests "oh, after the summer".  It was early June.  The bugger told me to take it easy in the meantime. They seem to have a genius for messing up your fun.
I've dusted all those old bottles and set them up straight.

IJL

Re: AFib watches
« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2020, 09:27:20 am »
Quote
A couple of years back, I was diagnosed with an ectopic heartbeat on a regular aircrew medical. The CAA gets a bit twitchy about anything to do with hearts, so I was instructed to get a holter  test and repeat it annually. My cardiologist (who has known me since I had a bout of viral pericarditis a few years ago) inspected the result and declared himself ‘spectacularly uninterested’; in other words what he saw was normal for an ageing but fit individual with a history of challenging exercise (his words. I was quite chuffed!). ‘Athletes heart syndrome’ is not confined to real athletes; regular fitness dudes get it too. Who knew?

There's something here about investigations in general, if you do tests without enough thought you risk finding "variations of normal".  You then have to work out what the results actually mean.  All hearts will produce some ectopic beats and most of the time you will be unaware of them.  If you happen to have a couple in the 10 seconds the ECG is recording it may appear to be problem when in fact that might have been the only 2 ectopics that week.

There was a fashion a few years ago of people having private "screening CT scans"  these were taken up by the worried well and all sorts of oddities were found, lots of curious but innocent cysts and the like.   Meanwhile you don't have to do many CT scans before you have used enough radiation to cause an extra cancer. ( cant recall the number).

Sometimes the simplest tests get overlooked, simply feeling and identifying irregular pulses (irregularly irregular) on all patients who are seen in the NHS would find a lot more AF which in turn would prevent  a huge number of strokes

Re: AFib watches
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2020, 12:40:37 pm »
During my wife's recent experience with the medical services, the paramedic did a 12 lead ECG and noted some PVC.  Later at the hospital they pronounced her heart perfectly OK, as did her GP last evening when reviewing the traces.

We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2020, 12:49:15 pm »
A couple of years back, I was diagnosed with an ectopic heartbeat on a regular aircrew medical. The CAA gets a bit twitchy about anything to do with hearts, so I was instructed to get a holter  test and repeat it annually. My cardiologist (who has known me since I had a bout of viral pericarditis a few years ago) inspected the result and declared himself ‘spectacularly uninterested’; in other words what he saw was normal for an ageing but fit individual with a history of challenging exercise (his words. I was quite chuffed!). ‘Athletes heart syndrome’ is not confined to real athletes; regular fitness dudes get it too. Who knew?

Surprised the CAA weren't a Royal Pain in the ass. My stepdad is an AME and has a pet professor of Cardiology who he can send pilots to for rapid testing and reviewing ECG readouts within 24hrs. Stepdad seems to spend a lot of time shouting at the CAA medics for being dim and medically-wrong, the CAA for losing data and generally making shit up which isn't in the rule book... I hadn't quite got him trained about Article 5(d) and (f) of the GDPR about accuracy and not-losing data which works 100% of the time to make DWP find "lost data" because I insist they prove to me they've reported themselves to the ICO or I'll do it myself. :D

Suspect Stepdad is gonna have to retire as he can't hack the PPE without going into meltdown and the CAA stressing him out isn't going to do him any favours. 

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: AFib watches
« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2020, 02:29:59 pm »
A couple of years back, I was diagnosed with an ectopic heartbeat on a regular aircrew medical. The CAA gets a bit twitchy about anything to do with hearts, so I was instructed to get a holter  test and repeat it annually. My cardiologist (who has known me since I had a bout of viral pericarditis a few years ago) inspected the result and declared himself ‘spectacularly uninterested’; in other words what he saw was normal for an ageing but fit individual with a history of challenging exercise (his words. I was quite chuffed!). ‘Athletes heart syndrome’ is not confined to real athletes; regular fitness dudes get it too. Who knew?

Surprised the CAA weren't a Royal Pain in the ass. My stepdad is an AME and has a pet professor of Cardiology who he can send pilots to for rapid testing and reviewing ECG readouts within 24hrs. Stepdad seems to spend a lot of time shouting at the CAA medics for being dim and medically-wrong, the CAA for losing data and generally making shit up which isn't in the rule book... I hadn't quite got him trained about Article 5(d) and (f) of the GDPR about accuracy and not-losing data which works 100% of the time to make DWP find "lost data" because I insist they prove to me they've reported themselves to the ICO or I'll do it myself. :D

Suspect Stepdad is gonna have to retire as he can't hack the PPE without going into meltdown and the CAA stressing him out isn't going to do him any favours. 

My AME has been around the block a few times, and - like your stepdad - has his favourite cardiologist (Rohan Jagasthesan), who is well used to dealing with the CAA. There really wasn't anything of concern, but the commitment to regular monitoring was enough to keep them off my back. In fact, on the last occasion they lifted the requirement for further monitoring. However, that was largely symbolic as I've now retired anyway. Saves me a couple of trips to Harlow!