Author Topic: RAAAAAWWWRR!  (Read 3365 times)

Pingu

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 11:50:46 pm »
A great, great victory!   I'm puzzled that the chasers seemed  to start eyeing each other up for what was effectively only one medal chance - and that was bronze.  They didn't want to help van Aert bridge to Alaphillipe because they knew he would win.  But that would have left them two medals to go for.  They must have known he'd win silver, surely.  Did they get it wrong or were they just worn out by a worthy winner?

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2020, 07:42:56 am »
I found the race utterly boring, only enlivened by the last 10 minutes or so. Alaphillipe deserved the win, but the van Aert group could and should have brought him back. I don’t get all the ridiculous pissing about going on when you can’t win the race.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2020, 08:43:42 am »
I found the race utterly boring, only enlivened by the last 10 minutes or so. Alaphillipe deserved the win, but the van Aert group could and should have brought him back. I don’t get all the ridiculous pissing about going on when you can’t win the race.
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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2020, 09:36:42 am »
I don't get the criticism about not working with Van Aert. Why would you give Van Aert a ride to the gold? The sane thing to do is make him drag everyone up to Alaphilippe and then counter attack over the top. The only way anyone in that group beats Van Aert is to get away from him, and I think Alaphilippe is probably second favourite for a sprint from the group, so having the 2 of them wear each other count and then counter is the perfect scenario. If you are Kwiatkowski, what do you care about a bronze when there's a chance of the rainbow bands? Similarly Fuglsang or Roglic - only Hirschi would enhance his reputation/palmares significantly with a podium, and he has enough of a kick to be best placed for bronze (or to compete with a knackered Van Aert in a sprint).

I thought it was a really interesting race. It looked like the French had done their work too early, and the Belgians and Italians were perfectly placed, but maybe the work that the French did caused enough fatigue that those teams ran out of legs in the last half a lap. I couldn't find it on Europsort, so I had to watch the BBC, and I wasn't impressed with the commentary. The segment with the Watford goalie was cringeworthy, as was the focus on where Pidcock was. He came in 40th or something - that's a worthy performance in his first senior worlds, but he was never going to feature with the top World Tour guys over a race this long. The commentators also seemed to want Pogacar to go all the way - if he had done that with an organised chase then all the suspicions would have been justified. The race was great though, and the course was a good one - enough climbing to weed out those who can't climb, but not so much that all you have to be able to do is go uphill. The womens race showed what a dominant team (with 3 of the best 6 riders in the world) could do, but there's no-one that dominant in the mens game, which made it much tighter.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2020, 09:41:15 am »
This thread is disappointingly low on narwhals.
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Mr Larrington

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2020, 10:10:05 am »


Is that better?
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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2020, 10:29:47 am »
If that's Alaphilippe on his day off, yes
And Darkness and Decay and the Coronavirus held illimitable dominion over all.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2020, 11:15:17 am »
I don't get the criticism about not working with Van Aert. Why would you give Van Aert a ride to the gold? The sane thing to do is make him drag everyone up to Alaphilippe and then counter attack over the top. The only way anyone in that group beats Van Aert is to get away from him, and I think Alaphilippe is probably second favourite for a sprint from the group, so having the 2 of them wear each other count and then counter is the perfect scenario. If you are Kwiatkowski, what do you care about a bronze when there's a chance of the rainbow bands? Similarly Fuglsang or Roglic - only Hirschi would enhance his reputation/palmares significantly with a podium, and he has enough of a kick to be best placed for bronze (or to compete with a knackered Van Aert in a sprint).

I thought it was a really interesting race. It looked like the French had done their work too early, and the Belgians and Italians were perfectly placed, but maybe the work that the French did caused enough fatigue that those teams ran out of legs in the last half a lap. I couldn't find it on Europsort, so I had to watch the BBC, and I wasn't impressed with the commentary. The segment with the Watford goalie was cringeworthy, as was the focus on where Pidcock was. He came in 40th or something - that's a worthy performance in his first senior worlds, but he was never going to feature with the top World Tour guys over a race this long. The commentators also seemed to want Pogacar to go all the way - if he had done that with an organised chase then all the suspicions would have been justified. The race was great though, and the course was a good one - enough climbing to weed out those who can't climb, but not so much that all you have to be able to do is go uphill. The womens race showed what a dominant team (with 3 of the best 6 riders in the world) could do, but there's no-one that dominant in the mens game, which made it much tighter.

Interesting analysis - game theory is often the best way of explaning why things work out as they do.

fd3

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2020, 11:22:09 am »
If you are in the chasing group and do the work to bridge the gap you are guaranteed not to win the sprint.  So you either have a disciplined turn taking in the chase or the moment someone shirks and claims to be too tired it falls apart.  It is game theory, it is the prisoner paradox and they aren't playing cooperatively because they get nothing for helping the other win.
This is a usual tactical move for the break - attack and hope that the chasers eye each other up, it's how Froome won the Giro.
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TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2020, 12:07:04 pm »
I don't get the criticism about not working with Van Aert. Why would you give Van Aert a ride to the gold? The sane thing to do is make him drag everyone up to Alaphilippe and then counter attack over the top. The only way anyone in that group beats Van Aert is to get away from him, and I think Alaphilippe is probably second favourite for a sprint from the group, so having the 2 of them wear each other count and then counter is the perfect scenario. If you are Kwiatkowski, what do you care about a bronze when there's a chance of the rainbow bands? Similarly Fuglsang or Roglic - only Hirschi would enhance his reputation/palmares significantly with a podium, and he has enough of a kick to be best placed for bronze (or to compete with a knackered Van Aert in a sprint).

I thought it was a really interesting race. It looked like the French had done their work too early, and the Belgians and Italians were perfectly placed, but maybe the work that the French did caused enough fatigue that those teams ran out of legs in the last half a lap. I couldn't find it on Europsort, so I had to watch the BBC, and I wasn't impressed with the commentary. The segment with the Watford goalie was cringeworthy, as was the focus on where Pidcock was. He came in 40th or something - that's a worthy performance in his first senior worlds, but he was never going to feature with the top World Tour guys over a race this long. The commentators also seemed to want Pogacar to go all the way - if he had done that with an organised chase then all the suspicions would have been justified. The race was great though, and the course was a good one - enough climbing to weed out those who can't climb, but not so much that all you have to be able to do is go uphill. The womens race showed what a dominant team (with 3 of the best 6 riders in the world) could do, but there's no-one that dominant in the mens game, which made it much tighter.

Obviously I saw it differently to you! It seemed to me that all the van Aert group achieved was to ensure that none of them had any chance of winning, and that the best any of them except van Aert could do was third. Yes, that was the most likely result even if they'd closed the gap to Alaphilippe - but it might not have been, and it seemed a shame that they didn't give themselves that chance.

I actually enjoyed that interview with the footy-type-chap. The focus on Pidcock I took as more of a commentary on how good a job Luke Rowe was doing; I don't think anyone really expected Pidcock to be in the finale. That said, he finished ahead of many more fancied riders.

The women's race was far more entertaining, in my eyes. But overall it was a great weekend of cycling and I have to say that this autumn is turning out to be wonderful viewing for this armchair cyclist!

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2020, 01:13:14 pm »
Tim, your first para makes my point exactly.  Take a chance (if they had the legs) and two medals are available to people not called van Aert.  Don't and there's only one.  Being charitable (and yeah, for sure, it's super-easy to be  charitable to pro-cyclists), I think it's likeliest that Alaphilippe had stuffed them and they knew it!

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2020, 01:48:55 pm »
The 2012 Olympic Mens road race is another typical example. The break was not chased down because - and I accept it was a much bigger group - they had no desire to deliver Cavendish in his peak form and team GB to the front of the race. The second group and the riders in it gave away their own chances of an Olympic medal purely to prevent a GB win.

GB missed the chance to win that day because they didn't put anyone in the break and put their eggs into the Cavendish basket.

If anyone was to beat Van Aert this weekend they needed to have gone with Alaphillipe and tried to beat him (good luck to them if they did try).

It's what makes cycle racing so much more nuanced than many other sports and the fact the World Champion is decided in a single day when other races take three weeks adds to the enjoyment.
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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2020, 02:26:29 pm »
Another way to look at the 'whether to work' question is that if you are in the group with WVA and you know he will toast you whether you catch Aaphillipe or not, why not work with him to bring Alaphilipe back, and then you have some credit with WVA you can call on in future?

I'm a bit surprised Roglic didn't help anyway given all WVAs efforts for JV in the Tour (but maybe he couldn't).

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2020, 02:58:38 pm »
I don't think anyone could go with Alaphilippe on the hill when he went. I don't think they were playing games at that point - if you can stay with him then you end up with a good chance of gold and a worst case of silver. I don't think anyone had great legs in the chase afterwards, if you do then the logical thing to do is jump and attack Van Aert after he's just done a big turn.

Luke Rowe did a good job and hung on gamely.  I was quite surprised not to see Simon Yates - I thought this course suited him perfectly and he's got enough of a kick to be competition for the likes of Alaphilippe. And clearly he has the form, given his performance at Tirenno.
Worlds is different to the Olympics because the big nations have more riders - isn't it limited to 5 at the Olympics? When you are so limited, if a few different breaks go and you want to get someone in each, you end up running out of bodies.

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2020, 03:30:28 pm »
It was easier when Eddy Merckx was racing.  He'd just ride away from the bunch and win.  No tactics, just superior power.
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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2020, 05:07:05 pm »
"Those were the days, my friend...."

Mr Larrington

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2020, 05:29:10 pm »
Just started watching the recording of the Chaps' Road Race.  Why is the BBC recycling a piece that Nice C Boardman did for one of ITV4's Tour rest day shows?  One can never have too much Nice C with his advocacy hat on, but even so…
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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2020, 07:28:14 pm »
One can never have too much Nice C with his advocacy hat on, but even so…
He's an advocate of disc brakes and electric gears.

Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
  • Mrs Pingu's domestique
    • the Igloo
Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2020, 07:44:34 pm »
Just started watching the recording of the Chaps' Road Race.  Why is the BBC recycling a piece that Nice C Boardman did for one of ITV4's Tour rest day shows?  One can never have too much Nice C with his advocacy hat on, but even so…

Did ITV4 lift it from somewhere else? If it's the one I'm thinking of, I've seen it on soshul meedja.

Mr Larrington

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2020, 08:51:02 pm »
One can never have too much Nice C with his advocacy hat on, but even so…
He's an advocate of disc brakes and electric gears.

Disc brakes yes, but although he’s openly confessed to using 'leccy gears since ~1994 I don’t think he's a fan.
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2020, 08:57:53 pm »
One can never have too much Nice C with his advocacy hat on, but even so…
He's an advocate of disc brakes and electric gears.

Disc brakes yes, but although he’s openly confessed to using 'leccy gears since ~1994 I don’t think he's a fan.

He actually I think said he liked disc brakes for general riding about, but that the issues with them for racing still remained ( wheel changes, compatibility etc).

Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2020, 08:59:32 pm »
We must also remember of course that Mr Boardman sells bikes.

Mr Larrington

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Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2020, 09:53:40 pm »
I kept wondering why the captions were in FOREIGN.  What do they mean, “front of the race” and not “tête de la course”?
External Transparent Wall Inspection Operative & Mayor of Mortagne-au-Perche
Satisfying the Bloodlust of the Masses in Peacetime

TimC

  • Old blerk sometimes onabike.
Re: RAAAAAWWWRR!
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2020, 01:31:02 am »
One can never have too much Nice C with his advocacy hat on, but even so…
He's an advocate of disc brakes and electric gears.

Nope. He like discs for general riding, but was scathing about the lack of standardisation for racing. He accepts that electronic gears are bling, and appreciates the wifi system of SRAM Etap, but - as he put it - both discs and electronic gears are ‘solutions looking for a problem’.