Author Topic: New touring frame needed, suggestions?  (Read 1122 times)

Pedal Castro

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New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« on: September 29, 2020, 05:49:59 am »
My aluminium winter commuter/touring frame has cracked.

In order to simply move most if not all the "stuff" to a new frame I need to buy a frame with rack attachment ability and normal caliper rim brake fixing holes in forks and rear bridge.

Any suggestions?

The Genesis Croix De Fer 725 looks like it might do the job as even with disc brake fittings it appears to be able to take rim brakes from the photos.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2020, 06:25:03 am »
Pah discs! If you buy a frame with disc compatible fork it won't be as compliant = comfortable as a rim brake fork. If that's a factor, should be on a tourer, look for something s/hand?

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2020, 07:40:34 am »
Spa Cycles   Audax / light Touring frames are good value  . or the Bridge water bandits ( Thorn ).
Four wheels move the body, two wheels move the soul  three wheels Nurses !!!

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2020, 07:43:29 am »
+1 for Spa. I have the Elan.

I also have a Surly Disc Trucker  which is always going to be a keeper. Audax, road touring and knobbly off road touring. Deep love.

They do a Long Haul Trucker if you are into your rim brakes.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2020, 08:18:11 am »
Pah discs! If you buy a frame with disc compatible fork it won't be as compliant = comfortable as a rim brake fork.
If you compare the rim and disc brake Surly LHT forks as an example, there isn't enough difference for anyone to notice.  While it's true that a rim brake fork needn't be as stiff as a rim brake one, it isn't true that's what you'll always get.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2020, 08:33:46 am »
I believe that the tendency amongst suppliers who offer both rim and disc brake variants is to have the same beefy fork on each, just with different mountings.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2020, 08:38:53 am »
If you can find an older Ridley Cross Bow it would be worth a look.( latest ones are, regrettably, disc only - so much for customer choice).
I use one as a winter bike, braze on brakes, lots of clearance, 2 bottle cage , mudguard and rear carrier fittings.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2020, 08:41:06 am »
Re the OP, there are lots of options but, when I made the same shift 5 years ago, I went for a Kinesis T2 and have been very happy with it. 

From a quick glance at their site it looks like they have now gone over to disc brakes almost entirely. 

Another model I was considering at the time was the the Tifosi CK7.  That still comes with rim brakes.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2020, 12:29:50 pm »


The Genesis Croix De Fer 725 looks like it might do the job as even with disc brake fittings it appears to be able to take rim brakes from the photos.

I've just nipped out to the shed and had a look at mine (2017 model). There is a mounting hole for mudguards in the rear seat stay bridge and in the fork crown but you would have to drill the bridge one out as it won't take the recessed hex nut thingy most brakes use - although a standard nut might work on the back I suppose. Similarly you would need to drill out the rear hole on the fork as the holes are the same size and you need the recessed nut on the front I'd imagine - depends what you think to manufacturer warranties. It's also designed with masses of clearance so you would need a really long drop caliper front and rear.

Last time I looked Surly were sticking with both rim and disk brake options across much of their range. I nearly bought the Cross Check but went for the Genesis.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2020, 07:22:04 pm »
Spa Cycles   Audax / light Touring frames are good value  . or the Bridge water bandits ( Thorn ).

+1 Steel Audax is still a nice ride

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2020, 08:32:06 pm »


The Genesis Croix De Fer 725 looks like it might do the job as even with disc brake fittings it appears to be able to take rim brakes from the photos.

I've just nipped out to the shed and had a look at mine (2017 model). There is a mounting hole for mudguards in the rear seat stay bridge and in the fork crown but you would have to drill the bridge one out as it won't take the recessed hex nut thingy most brakes use - although a standard nut might work on the back I suppose. Similarly you would need to drill out the rear hole on the fork as the holes are the same size and you need the recessed nut on the front I'd imagine - depends what you think to manufacturer warranties. It's also designed with masses of clearance so you would need a really long drop caliper front and rear.

Last time I looked Surly were sticking with both rim and disk brake options across much of their range. I nearly bought the Cross Check but went for the Genesis.

Surly are slowly changing/moving with the times. While the current USA Straggler appears to still have old school disc caliper mounts and quick releases, the current Disc Trucker has moved to through axles and flat mount calipers. What seems to be on sale in Europe (at least on the discount sites that I look at) is all qr versions. Looking at the Surly site sometimes gives a different story. Not that this of vast interest to someone wanting rim brakes.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2020, 08:33:38 pm »

They do a Long Haul Trucker if you are into your rim brakes.

LHT is on the shortlist but not found a 700c version yet.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2020, 09:09:47 am »
Spa Cycles Steel looks the business, thanks for all the suggestions.

I rubbed down the area where the crack was, down tube near head tube junction and the crack disappeared but I think that is because the aluminium/paint residue just filled it in a bit.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2020, 09:48:01 am »
Spa Cycles Steel looks the business, thanks for all the suggestions.

I rubbed down the area where the crack was, down tube near head tube junction and the crack disappeared but I think that is because the aluminium/paint residue just filled it in a bit.
Hah! The love of N+1 is weighting your argument. Keep us posted!

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2020, 10:02:08 am »
if you want a cheap steel touring frame then 'nidderdalecyclesandhire' have NOS Raleigh frames (no fork) on ebay for £95 + postage.

The frame itself looks like it is good quality; it may not suit your needs though (it uses cantis/Vs not caliper brakes, and there is only one size available).  The other comment I would make is that in every photo I have seen of a built-up bike the angles look very steep. I suspect that the geometry is actually suited to use of a suspension fork, and that if you don't want the seat angle to end up impossibly steep, you need to use a much taller fork than is usual.

cheers


Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2020, 10:27:22 am »
+1 for Spa. I have the Elan.

I also have a Surly Disc Trucker  which is always going to be a keeper. Audax, road touring and knobbly off road touring. Deep love.

They do a Long Haul Trucker if you are into your rim brakes.

For touring you can't beat fat tyres.  Soak up road bumps and very reassuring for loaded descents.  My tourer has 1.75" and space for more if you like.
Sic transit and all that..

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 11:51:22 am »
My red Spa Audax arrived today, it is beautiful!!!

My first steel frame since my bespoke Brian Rourke back in 1988 (excluding tandems).

Now, so I simply transfer campag centaur groupset from cracked frame or buy a new 105gs? If the old frame goes on the turbo then I'll need to leave/put some stuff on it anyway. Decisions decisions...  ;D

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 01:01:37 pm »
pretty much anything will do for the home trainer, and you don't need a full groupset, so I'd be tempted to build that up with bits and pieces.  However if the parts off the old frame are past their sell-by date (or, equally likely with campag stuff, becoming fast-appreciating 'neo classic' equipment) then different stuff might be 'the way'.

Depending on how you look at the bike then an 11s groupset would be nice but then again if it gives you more gears than you need, it is just more expensive to run than 8s or 9s stuff 'in the commuting grind' for no real benefit.

One of the crunchy issues is potentially going to be brakes. IIRC  Spa Audax needs brakes with a ~57mm drop.  For many years this has meant shimano BR-R650 calipers.  However these are designed to work with STIs which were launched pre 2008, and also work with Campag ergos.  What they don't do is work very well with levers designed for 'New Super SLR' or 'SLR-EV' brakes; shimano approve this combination but mark it with a dotted line on their compatibility charts, saying 'reduced power'.   If they were more honest they would say 'crap brakes guaranteed'. 

Annoyingly shimano don't offer a properly NSSLR compatible brake caliper with a drop more than ~51mm.  The best option I know of currently is to use Tektro R559 calipers (55-73mm) with frames requiring a drop of 55-65mm; provided the brake blocks are in the top of the slot the caliper MA is going to work reasonably well with NSSLR levers (better than BR-R650/BR-R450/BR-R451 with the brake blocks in the bottom of the slot, for sure).

So this wasn't mentioned previously because you were set on putting the old kit on the new frame. But it is a real PITA if you are thinking about a newer groupset and you need mudguard clearances.

hth

cheers

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2020, 07:05:27 pm »
Interesting info there Bruce, I have decided to not use the Campag stuff but use bits and pieces I have lieing around and aiming to complete it with less than £100.

Starting with near mint 7800 DuraAce brake levers which I have looking for a home, so now looking out for 10s front and rear 105 or ultegra mechs on ebay. I'll check the brake drop needed before searching for calipers.

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2020, 11:55:54 pm »
Interesting info there Bruce, I have decided to not use the Campag stuff but use bits and pieces I have lieing around and aiming to complete it with less than £100.

Starting with near mint 7800 DuraAce brake levers which I have looking for a home, so now looking out for 10s front and rear 105 or ultegra mechs on ebay. I'll check the brake drop needed before searching for calipers.

The Audax needs 57mm drop calipers. The best in my view are TRP RG957 - https://www.spacycles.co.uk/m7b0s100p3651/TRP-RG957-Brake-Set - but they are quite pricey.

I’ve got a few other bits in 10 speed if you’re interested. Certainly a front mech of some sort.

Mike

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2020, 07:18:53 am »
My red Spa Audax arrived today, it is beautiful!!!
Pictures please. :D

Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #21 on: October 14, 2020, 08:15:09 am »

The Audax needs 57mm drop calipers. The best in my view are TRP RG957..... but they are quite pricey.


they are nice brakes (and are compatible with NSSLR levers) but (47-57mm) they will be at 'full stretch' when fitted to a lot of audax type framesets.  This will result in the caliper MA being significantly lower (up to about 25% lower) than if the brake blocks are in the upper half of the slots. There is a chance that on some frames with mudguard  clearance the reach won't quite be long enough.

The R559 calipers (55-73mm) have the opposite problem; they may not be short enough for some frames with mudguard clearance. But if the brake blocks are in the top half of the slot the MA will be as high as it is ever going to be.

FWIW the higher caliper MA with current brake designs has made the variation in caliper MA which occurs when the brake blocks are set to different depths greater than it ever was before.  In fact it is so great that the difference between the top and the bottom of the slot is as much as the difference between generations of lever.

Anyway measuring up carefully will tell you exactly what brake drop is required (IME it can vary slightly even in frames that are meant to be 'the same') and then it is a question of choosing accordingly.

PS. Oh- I just noticed that you are intending to use 7800 levers; these are pre-NSSLR type which means that neither of the calipers discussed above are correct.  In shimano,  BR-R650, BR-R450, BR-R451 should have the correct MA and about the right reach.  Most older DPs from various manufacturers will be in the ball-park too, MA-wise.  If they fit then BR-R650 (which is just going NLA right now, but I think you should be able to find them if you look hard) is the best choice; unlike the others BR-R650 has ultegra quality pivots using ball bearings etc .

cheers

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: New touring frame needed, suggestions?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2020, 12:25:28 pm »
My red Spa Audax arrived today, it is beautiful!!!
Pictures please. :D

Pictures will follow soon!

Looks like the Campag Chorus callipers I have hanging around will have enough drop. I'll add an inline barrel adjuster for a not quite quick release option maybe.