Poll

Which pedal system would you recommend to a newbie road cyclist?

Shimano SPD
24 (46.2%)
Shimano SPD-SL
6 (11.5%)
Look Keo
5 (9.6%)
Time ATAC
3 (5.8%)
Speedplay
4 (7.7%)
Eggbeaters
0 (0%)
Toeclips!
1 (1.9%)
Flats!
9 (17.3%)
Other...
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 52

Author Topic: What pedals?  (Read 3179 times)

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #50 on: November 19, 2020, 03:10:13 pm »
Equipping our fleet with solely SPDs means that I have to carry fewer spares and that all shoes fit all bikes.

This a compelling argument...

I'd say it's an overrated argument. But it really comes down to personal choice - if that uniformity is more useful to you than having the supposed benefits of different systems for specific uses, then who am I to argue?

I've acquired a few different pedal systems over the years. My first foray into clipless pedals was with Shimano SPD-R, which was a mistake that I would rectify with hindsight if I could - SPD-SL had already been introduced by that time (though it was still very new) and SPD-R was on its way out. When it became difficult to get hold of replacement cleats, I moved over to SPD-SL, since the cleats fitted the same shoes I'd been using. But I still have the SPD-R pedals and cleats knocking around somewhere.

Added SPD to my repertoire later when I took up cyclocross. Now also have an MTB which also has SPD fitted.

Then I added Look to my repertoire when I was given some pedals for free. Up to that point, I'd been swapping one set of SPD-SL pedals between two bikes, since I'd not got round to buying another set. Luckily I had spare shoes that I could fit with Look cleats.

The only down side I can think of is needing to make sure you pick up the correct shoes before setting off for a distant audax... but I seem to have coped fine so far.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #51 on: November 19, 2020, 03:15:29 pm »
Depends on how many different types of shoes you want to combine with different types of bike, I suppose.  I'm used to choosing between shoes, sandals and waterproof boots according to conditions, and while certain combinations are unlikely (I tend not to use the boots on the recumbent bikes), you're either limiting your options or justifying a whole load of s+1.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #52 on: November 19, 2020, 03:30:14 pm »
I'm used to choosing between shoes, sandals and waterproof boots according to conditions

Fair point. I don't do sandals, and I use overshoes rather than boots, so this has not occurred to me as a potential problem, but I guess that just goes to prove that there is no universal answer to the question.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

What pedals?
« Reply #53 on: November 19, 2020, 03:34:04 pm »
I used to swap pedals for the winter so that I could use my cx shoes or winter boots and then swap back to Look for the summer. Two summers in a row now I have not bothered and just stick to spd all year. I will stick to Looks on my TT/tri bike as I have specific shoes I am not going to change.

Edit: and I have some sandals too now !

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #54 on: November 19, 2020, 03:39:34 pm »
Standardising on ATAC would be expensive  :-\

Ooh, found a Brompton solution thobut: https://www.mkspedal.com/?q=en/product/node/57
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #55 on: November 19, 2020, 04:03:50 pm »
I'm only interested in the reasons for people's individual preferences, and details of their own experiences.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 :) Well it looks like you got what you wanted!  I'm sorry, I took the original question at face value and then overreacted to another questionnaire that I couldn't answer.

My preferences depend on what sort of riding I'm going to be doing and what I want to wear - expanding on that would take ages.  Apart from Cinelli M71's they all have their uses.


quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #56 on: November 19, 2020, 04:54:47 pm »

Yeah I hear the entire World Tour professional peloton are changing over to flat pedals after reading your post.

Factitious tho your comment is, the reality is, that noone on this forum is in the world tour peloton. We have a couple of world champions in specific disciplines, including two 24 hour TT world champions, who have accounts on this forum, as well as other truly impressive athletes. The reality is we're not world tour pro's. We're not even close to that level. Most of us don't compete, we're just out riding bikes cos we like to ride bikes. To compare us with world tour pro's is a bit like comparing our driving to that of Lewis Hamilton. Yet I don't see you all going out to buy Nomex suits and HANS units so you can drive to the pub on a Sunday. Oh, and of those amazing athletes, I mention, one of them was beaten in an ultra race by a rider using walking trainers on flat pedals.

Quote
Yeah I agree with this. The only exception being fixed gesr where I use SPDs because a missed clip-in with Look/Spd-sl style can quickly turn into a ball-ache. Plus SPDs are good if you need the emergency fixed riders 2nd gear

Fixed is one area where I think pedal retention is necessary. Esp those morons who don't think they need to obey the law and have at least one working brake...

I see it, especially for noobs, as being more about keeping foot position rather than retention. When you're clipped in, it removes that tendency for the pedal axle to end up centred on the arch of the foot rather than under the ball. Toe clips do do the same, but if anything are harder to use than SPDs, especially in the mtb flavour.
Best of both worlds here - I use the Shimano pedals that are cleats one side and flats the other ;)

That's a double edged sword. If you aren't set up perfectly, that keeping the foot in the same position for the whole ride can lead to injury, which can set you back no end. On RatN in 2018 my Achilles blew up big time (it swelled to double normal size), I eventually found one position on the pedal that was least painful, and just didn't take the foot off the pedal for the next 30+km. With cleats, I wouldn't have much opportunity to do that.

There's some interesting research out there about mid foot cleat position. I'm still not entirely convinced about it, but it's certainly interesting to read.

Had to permit myself a chuckle this morning, fixed honking up a short rise, feeling the top of my feet hitting the uppers of my shoes and remembering how it had been noobsplained to me that this sensation was, of course, mythical. Then later dtopping heels to stretch calfs whilst spinning, and contemplating what would happen were I to use flats.

Fixed, so not relevant to the use case of the OP. As mentioned above, fixed gear is a use case for pedal retention. As the OP wrote, this is not a fixee rider...

Pulled my foot out setting off from some lights this morning (not sure how when pulling up doesn't exist).   I had to giggle.

I should have been more specific in my reply when I said that pulling up is a myth. I am not saying that some riders who have trained to do so, do not pull up. I am suggesting that the need to pull up on the pedal is not actually a necessity in order to ride a bike. For your average rider out to enjoy riding their bike, there is, IMHO, no need for pedal retention, and no benefit to be had from training yourself to pull up

GCN have done a not exactly scientific look at this, it's hardly scientific, but it does suggest there's not much difference between the two.

https://www.velonews.com/training/video-gcn-investigates-real-difference-clipless-flat-pedals/

This article from cycling weekly is also interesting. It's an interesting point that the power of your stroke is in pushing down, not in pulling up, and pulling up can reduce the power you can push down...

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/fitness/training/how-to-pedal-efficiently-173185

https://gearandgrit.com/the-cycling-myth-that-wont-die-pedaling-circles/


No. What is a myth is that 'pulling up is a myth'.   I know this because my feet variously fall off/lift off flat pedals (eg if they are the slightest bit damp) unless I make a conscious effort not to try at all hard when riding my utility bike which still has flat pedals on it. I can just about keep a lid on it in the dry but only just.  Pulling out of junctions and short climbs are still problematic; I've been mostly riding with my feet attached to pedals for about forty years and it probably isn't safe for me to (quite pointlessly) change away from pedalling nice circles.  Flats on my utility bike are only tolerable because I don't do thousands of miles a year on it.   I would therefore suppose that flat pedals may best suit folk who "don't try too hard"...? ;)

Because you have trained yourself to do so, you have used some form of pedal retention because you have been told that it's necessary, and then when you have that equipment you have taught yourself to pull up. That is the habit you have got in. There is no evidence in the above that if we banned you from ever using pedal retention ever again, you'd be forever slower. The reality is after a few weeks of adjustment you'd be back to normal and just as fast as ever.

You've been riding with pedal retention for longer than I've been alive. Excellent, the thing is, the person in question from the OP, hasn't been. So the question is, should this person start. I'm suggesting no. If we were to transport 40 year ago you to now, and give you modern bikes, I would also argue that unless you are competing, then you don't need to worry about pedal retention, just ride your bike and have fun.

Quote
FWIW when you need a 'manifesto' to choose flat pedals and then go into ever decreasing circles worrying about the soles of your shoes, the exact degree of flatness, spikes etc it is in truth no simpler than worrying about cleats, clipless pedals and so forth.

I have no manifesto on this, I shared a link to something that actually came up in a different thread on a related subject on this forum. During the summer I've been wearing a pair of Salaman walking trainers, and now it's winter I've swapped to some Miendl walking trainers. I use Shimano M324 pedals, which have SPD on one side, and flat on the other. Why do I do this when I do not believe that SPD is necessary. Because a) I wanted to be sure of this for myself, thus needed pedals to try it. and b) I joined a group ride who gatekeep their rides by mandating that you must have pedal retention to join them. Which should have been a red flag, as it turns out that they were a bunch of total wankers, and I haven't ridden with them since. But it does mean I have the option.

I do have a pair of SPD-SL pedals in the box. But no shoes to go with them. I should probably just flog them.

Maybe I have weird feet, but I've yet to find any cycling shoes that are comfortable past the 3 hour or so mark.

Ultimately you pays your money and makes your choice. I ride flats, because I don't see any benefit for the riding I do of using anything else. I am not a roadie, I don't know if I fit any sub-category of cyclist. I ride a MTB frame, with TT handle bars, and road slick tyres. There's always luggage attached, and I carry a toolkit better spec'd than some bike shops. But then I'm also not out to be the fastest there is. I just want to go for nice rides, long rides, lots of them, day after day. Is it touring with a sense of urgency? Maybe. Am I pedalling endless perfect circles? probably not. But it's this road I ride... Maybe if I was cruising at something more than 20-23kph...

YMMV, etc.

I'm only interested in the reasons for people's individual preferences, and details of their own experiences. People are entitled to their own view on their personal requirements, even if they're based on misunderstandings. It's all entirely subjective.

I may have understated my friend's experience - he's done several rides of 100km+ using mainly (borrowed) Look Keo pedals, but also SPDs, so he does have some insight into the pros and cons of both. But he is still relatively new to road cycling and doesn't know what he doesn't know, if you see what I mean, hence asking for advice. And it was contemplating what advice to give him that made me realise my own experience of pedal systems is pretty narrow, which is why I was interested in canvassing for a wider range of opinions. I might have guessed it would lead to the usual pointless arguments.  ;D

Anyway, since he gets on fine with the Looks, I have suggested he sticks with those.

What sort of riding is he doing? Does he just want to ride his bike and enjoy the ride? Or does he want to race? or chase KOMs or pretend he's in the pro peloton?

Answers to the above can define what pedals you end up with.

Depends on how many different types of shoes you want to combine with different types of bike, I suppose.  I'm used to choosing between shoes, sandals and waterproof boots according to conditions, and while certain combinations are unlikely (I tend not to use the boots on the recumbent bikes), you're either limiting your options or justifying a whole load of s+1.

Not to mention the number of users of said systems, and the amount of space you have for storing shoes. If every bike is only riden by one person, then it's less of an issue, but if you have 2 riders who share a bike, then you now have 2 sets of every type of shoe, which adds up fast.

I have two pairs of SPD shoes, one I bought, and one I was given, and it's a faff to store them, They usually end up under a wheel in the hallway somewhere. I'd hate to think If I had to have multiple pairs for multiple systems...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #57 on: November 19, 2020, 05:03:40 pm »

Yeah I hear the entire World Tour professional peloton are changing over to flat pedals after reading your post.

Factitious tho your comment is, the reality is, that noone on this forum is in the world tour peloton. We have a couple of world champions in specific disciplines, including two 24 hour TT world champions, who have accounts on this forum, as well as other truly impressive athletes. The reality is we're not world tour pro's. We're not even close to that level. Most of us don't compete, we're just out riding bikes cos we like to ride bikes. To compare us with world tour pro's is a bit like comparing our driving to that of Lewis Hamilton. Yet I don't see you all going out to buy Nomex suits and HANS units so you can drive to the pub on a Sunday. Oh, and of those amazing athletes, I mention, one of them was beaten in an ultra race by a rider using walking trainers on flat pedals.

I'm not a professional chef. Should I abandon using the cooker and just heat food up with petrol instead?

Your argument only holds if non-pro riders are incapable of riding efficiently. Clearly arrant bollocks.

Why do you think WT riders use clipless? Only about 10/200 of them sprint in a race, and none of them ride fixed.

Are they all wrong, and you are right?

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #58 on: November 19, 2020, 05:11:38 pm »
To be fair, much of what WT riders use is dictated by the intersection of commercial interests and arbitrary competition rules, rather than any particular suitability for the purpose.

Meanwhile, a lot of what real world riders use is dictated by the intersection of commercial availability and fashion, rather than any particular suitability for the purpose.

I don't think we can infer a lot from either.  Data ("These studies suggest that pulling up while pedalling is a marginal gain") and anecdote ("Pedalling one-footed can sometimes stop you falling on your arse", "Flats are mostly fine", "ATACs have weird sideways float", "Those MKS pedals aren't as SPD-compatible as they look") are more helpful.  This thread has provided a useful assortment of both, which was surely the OP's intention.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #59 on: November 19, 2020, 05:21:16 pm »
I don't think we can infer a lot from either.

Precisely why individual experience is of more interest than appeals to authority.

Quote
This thread has provided a useful assortment of both, which was surely the OP's intention.

Bingo.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2020, 05:29:23 pm »
I'm not a professional chef. Should I abandon using the cooker and just heat food up with petrol instead?

I'm willing to put money on it that your Kitchen looks nothing like that of a professional chef. The chefs I know are the sort that have a tool roll with all their knives in that they have carefully selected. They also have kitchens that are typically made entirely from 304 stainless. To be easy to clean. Their stove top in many cases is a hot plate with different areas different temperatures. That argument is a massive false equivalence

Quote
Your argument only holds if non-pro riders are incapable of riding efficiently. Clearly arrant bollocks.

Why do you think WT riders use clipless? Only about 10/200 of them sprint in a race, and none of them ride fixed.

Are they all wrong, and you are right?

I'm not saying non pro riders aren't pedalling efficiently. I am saying that pedal retention is not a requirement to pedal efficiently, and that your average rider does not get the benefit from it they think they do. I am also saying that we should not compare what the pros do to what we do as we are not pro racers, and we have a different use case. If you all wanna pretend you're Froome or Vos, go for it, but admit it. Your SPD's and the like are all lovely, I'm glad you all love them. But you could have saved your money and spent it on cake instead in most cases.

We need to stop telling people new to cycling that they need pedal retention to be a proper cyclist. We need to stop gate keeping the fucking sport. More people should ride bikes, and anything to encourage that should be embraced. Our constant mantra that you need stupid shoes to be a real cyclist, or that it will make dramatic massive differences to our performance, is not helping. We are not Vos. We are not Froome, hell most of us don't even compete. So just wear what's comfy, and what's safe, and stop fucking about.

I'm saying that experience of riding bikes in the pro tour has as much relevance to us lot doing a 100k ride on a Sunday, as Lewis Hamilton's experience does to us driving to the same pub on a Sunday.

To be fair, much of what WT riders use is dictated by the intersection of commercial interests and arbitrary competition rules, rather than any particular suitability for the purpose.

Exactly. This is something that has caused real harm to some rides, esp when they have to use the saddle the team sponsor provides, rather than the one that is best suited to their bodies.

Quote
Meanwhile, a lot of what real world riders use is dictated by the intersection of commercial availability and fashion, rather than any particular suitability for the purpose.

Exactly, a lot of people use SPD-SL cos that's what the pros use and they want to pretend they are Froome or Vos. Which is fine, be honest about it, but let's not gatekeep that everyone needs to do that.

Quote
I don't think we can infer a lot from either.  Data ("These studies suggest that pulling up while pedalling is a marginal gain") and anecdote ("Pedalling one-footed can sometimes stop you falling on your arse", "Flats are mostly fine", "ATACs have weird sideways float", "Those MKS pedals aren't as SPD-compatible as they look") are more helpful.  This thread has provided a useful assortment of both, which was surely the OP's intention.

Wait, we've been useful? are you sure? this is YACF after all...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2020, 05:41:53 pm »
To be fair, much of what WT riders use is dictated by the intersection of commercial interests and arbitrary competition rules, rather than any particular suitability for the purpose.

In terms of brands, yes. In terms of intrinsic qualities, no. If what you say were true, we would expect to see companies competing through tangible difference, rather than endless iterations of essentially the same product.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2020, 06:19:59 pm »
<...>
I'm not saying non pro riders aren't pedalling efficiently. I am saying that pedal retention is not a requirement to pedal efficiently, and that your average rider does not get the benefit from it they think they do. I am also saying that we should not compare what the pros do to what we do as we are not pro racers, and we have a different use case. If you all wanna pretend you're Froome or Vos, go for it, but admit it. Your SPD's and the like are all lovely, I'm glad you all love them. But you could have saved your money and spent it on cake instead in most cases.
<...>

oh dear :). for what it's worth, i'm not interested (well, barely) in professional cycling, none of the pros is an aspiration* or a role model. i choose to ride what suits me most for a particular type of riding. i think i've gone through about ten different pedal systems, settled on five(ish) that serve my needs best (just counted nine pairs of cycling shoes, probably one or two too many). flat pedals get some use too, on my runabout bike - that's where they belong in my "cycling life". i have an open mind and if some "better" system is created, i'd like to try it out.

* well, if someone offered their level of fitness for free, i'd take it 8)

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #63 on: November 19, 2020, 06:46:48 pm »



No. What is a myth is that 'pulling up is a myth'.   I know this because my feet variously fall off/lift off flat pedals (eg if they are the slightest bit damp) unless I make a conscious effort not to try at all hard when riding my utility bike which still has flat pedals on it. I can just about keep a lid on it in the dry but only just.  Pulling out of junctions and short climbs are still problematic; I've been mostly riding with my feet attached to pedals for about forty years and it probably isn't safe for me to (quite pointlessly) change away from pedalling nice circles.  Flats on my utility bike are only tolerable because I don't do thousands of miles a year on it.   I would therefore suppose that flat pedals may best suit folk who "don't try too hard"...? ;)

Because you have trained yourself to do so, you have used some form of pedal retention because you have been told that it's necessary, and then when you have that equipment you have taught yourself to pull up. That is the habit you have got in. There is no evidence in the above that if we banned you from ever using pedal retention ever again, you'd be forever slower. The reality is after a few weeks of adjustment you'd be back to normal and just as fast as ever.

You've been riding with pedal retention for longer than I've been alive. Excellent, the thing is, the person in question from the OP, hasn't been. So the question is, should this person start. I'm suggesting no. If we were to transport 40 year ago you to now, and give you modern bikes, I would also argue that unless you are competing, then you don't need to worry about pedal retention, just ride your bike and have fun.


er, I was competing, and have done for much of that 40 year period.  I spent about a decade as a nipper riding around on flat pedals; so have most other people; the idea that folk who choose to ride clipped in somehow 'don't know what it is like to ride flats' is one of the more risible suggestions in this thread.   I -like millions of others- found I pedalled better, was safer and was more comfortable with clips and straps (or some clipless) even when I was nipping down the shops or whatever.   

FWIW I have also toured for tens of thousands of miles with clips and straps, much of it in shoes with flat soles and with the straps set pretty loose. For a long time I would normally use double straps on my touring bike, with the second set well back, so that I couldn't pull my foot out backwards when that strap was snug.   You don't "need" to be strapped in tight for extended subcritical efforts, but having the option is at least useful and (IME) it is  pretty much essential at times.  Hence my comment about flats perhaps being best suited to those who don't try too hard. 

BTW even when touring being strapped in is helpful; when climbing for four hours or more at a stretch, muscles tend to get tired. Just being able to vary the pedalling muscles used (eg by pulling up more, or dragging the foot through the bottom more for a while ) makes it easier to sustain those kinds of efforts.  This simply isn't possible unless you are clipped in.

So the question about whether someone should try being clipped in or not; of course they should.   Most people find it beneficial and if they turn out to be one of the small percentage of riders who get the miles in but don't value being clipped in, great, why not; flog your pedals and shoes and use whatever suits you best.  But evangelising flat pedals and trying to put folk off using anything else using a load of spurious arguments (eg 'manifestos') isn't particularly helpful or relevant to most keen cyclists.

Folk have been clipping in for over a hundred years, I don't think it is some kind of mistaken fashion... ::-)

cheers




Re: What pedals?
« Reply #64 on: November 19, 2020, 06:54:23 pm »

Your argument only holds if non-pro riders are incapable of riding efficiently. Clearly arrant bollocks.

Why do you think WT riders use clipless? Only about 10/200 of them sprint in a race, and none of them ride fixed.

Are they all wrong, and you are right?

I'm not saying non pro riders aren't pedalling efficiently. I am saying that pedal retention is not a requirement to pedal efficiently, and that your average rider does not get the benefit from it they think they do. I am also saying that we should not compare what the pros do to what we do as we are not pro racers, and we have a different use case. If you all wanna pretend you're Froome or Vos, go for it, but admit it. Your SPD's and the like are all lovely, I'm glad you all love them. But you could have saved your money and spent it on cake instead in most cases.

You haven't answered the question.

What pedaling benefit do pros get from using clipless that isnt available to non-pros?

Or are they all wrong, and have been wrong for 100 years, and you are right?

Quote
We need to stop telling people new to cycling that they need pedal retention to be a proper cyclist. We need to stop gate keeping the fucking sport. More people should ride bikes, and anything to encourage that should be embraced. Our constant mantra that you need stupid shoes to be a real cyclist, or that it will make dramatic massive differences to our performance, is not helping. We are not Vos. We are not Froome, hell most of us don't even compete. So just wear what's comfy, and what's safe, and stop fucking about.

That is just some weird ill-defined rant.

Nobody is telling you to use or wear anything. Certainly not me. I couldn't give a toss what you use.

But you are busy telling people like me who have been cycling for longer than you have been on the planet that we don't know what we are doing/talking about, and you know best.

Quote
I'm saying that experience of riding bikes in the pro tour has as much relevance to us lot doing a 100k ride on a Sunday, as Lewis Hamilton's experience does to us driving to the same pub on a Sunday.

Rock up to my average summer sunday club A group ride. Stick with us for 60 miles @ 20mph av. and then you can tell us all about what our Sunday 100k is like.


Kim

  • Timelord
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #65 on: November 19, 2020, 07:05:18 pm »
Wait, we've been useful? are you sure? this is YACF after all...

I learned nearly everything I know about cycling that didn't come from St. Sheldon via YACF.  Just because some people like arguing on the internet doesn't change the substance of the discussion.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #66 on: November 19, 2020, 07:27:46 pm »
er, I was competing, and have done for much of that 40 year period.  I spent about a decade as a nipper riding around on flat pedals; so have most other people; the idea that folk who choose to ride clipped in somehow 'don't know what it is like to ride flats' is one of the more risible suggestions in this thread.   I -like millions of others- found I pedalled better, was safer and was more comfortable with clips and straps (or some clipless) even when I was nipping down the shops or whatever.

What made you get the pedals with toe straps in the first place?

I don't think I suggested that the those with pedal retention don't know what it's like to ride flats. I suggested that people who ride with pedal retention are used to riding with pedal retention. Same way people who don't ride with pedal retention, aren't used to riding with pedal retention...

Quote
FWIW I have also toured for tens of thousands of miles with clips and straps, much of it in shoes with flat soles and with the straps set pretty loose. For a long time I would normally use double straps on my touring bike, with the second set well back, so that I couldn't pull my foot out backwards when that strap was snug.   You don't "need" to be strapped in tight for extended subcritical efforts, but having the option is at least useful and (IME) it is  pretty much essential at times.  Hence my comment about flats perhaps being best suited to those who don't try too hard. 

What counts as trying too hard?

Quote
BTW even when touring being strapped in is helpful; when climbing for four hours or more at a stretch, muscles tend to get tired. Just being able to vary the pedalling muscles used (eg by pulling up more, or dragging the foot through the bottom more for a while ) makes it easier to sustain those kinds of efforts.  This simply isn't possible unless you are clipped in.

I have not had the same experience. I guess we've ridden different roads...

Quote
So the question about whether someone should try being clipped in or not; of course they should.   Most people find it beneficial and if they turn out to be one of the small percentage of riders who get the miles in but don't value being clipped in, great, why not; flog your pedals and shoes and use whatever suits you best.  But evangelising flat pedals and trying to put folk off using anything else using a load of spurious arguments (eg 'manifestos') isn't particularly helpful or relevant to most keen cyclists.

Folk have been clipping in for over a hundred years, I don't think it is some kind of mistaken fashion... ::-)

Insisting that pedal retention is critical, that you can't perform without it, that it's necessary to be a keen cyclist, to be a real cyclist, to perform at a high level. I believe that this is not founded on a strong body of evidence. I believe that we should not be pushing people to pedal retention just because that's what we've always done.

I not noone has been posting strong scientific evidence in favour of pedal retention. The best anyone has come up with is "that's what the pros do".

I appreciate that I'm an idiot, I appreciate I'm not a real cyclist, and that my opinion is of no value. I just felt someone should point out that maybe we shouldn't push everyone to clipping in. It's not for everybody.

It's OK, I'll go back to riding my bike and asking about failure modes of esoteric bits of kit, I have a race to train for.
J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #67 on: November 19, 2020, 07:33:49 pm »
No one is pushing anyone to do anything they don’t want to.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #68 on: November 19, 2020, 07:44:18 pm »
You haven't answered the question.

What pedaling benefit do pros get from using clipless that isnt available to non-pros?

Or are they all wrong, and have been wrong for 100 years, and you are right?

Well in the case of the sprinters, they are putting out powers well over 1000w, and sustaining 400w+. Most normal cyclists aren't. Not even close. In their bunched sprints, slipping a foot from a pedal could lead to a big crash. Less of an issue for non racing cyclists...

Noone has actually given anything other than personal anecdata about what the advantages are of being clipped in, esp for normal riders.

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That is just some weird ill-defined rant.

Nobody is telling you to use or wear anything. Certainly not me. I couldn't give a toss what you use.

But you are busy telling people like me who have been cycling for longer than you have been on the planet that we don't know what we are doing/talking about, and you know best.

I'm not telling anyone to use anything. I'm suggesting that you don't have to be clipped in. I don't give a shit what pedals people use. I do object greatly to gatekeeping, which is often done.

And yes, It's very likely my rant is ill defined.

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Rock up to my average summer sunday club A group ride. Stick with us for 60 miles @ 20mph av. and then you can tell us all about what our Sunday 100k is like.

The idea of doing 30kph for 100k as part of a group does not appeal, so I'll pass. But thanks for the invite. If you're ever in the Netherlands let me know, I'll take you for a ride, tho unless there's a substantial tail wind, it won't be at 30kph...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #69 on: November 19, 2020, 07:47:16 pm »
Our constant mantra that you need stupid shoes to be a real cyclist, or that it will make dramatic massive differences to our performance, is not helping.
Rigid soled shoes and foot retention are not entirely the same thing, but they in my experience both important and I don’t particularly pull up on my pedals. If I was only allowed one I would go for rigid shoes. I still remember my first cycling shoes and how much difference they made even before I got cleats. Cycling a few miles to the shops or tennis I just wear trainers, but anything further I want proper shoes.

I do a bit of competitive triathlon and in the sprint duathlon you run then cycle then run. The bike leg is only 20km but the time cost of changing from running shoes to bike shoes and then back again is more than outweighed by the time saving on the 20km.

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #70 on: November 19, 2020, 07:59:23 pm »
You haven't answered the question.

What pedaling benefit do pros get from using clipless that isnt available to non-pros?

Or are they all wrong, and have been wrong for 100 years, and you are right?

Well in the case of the sprinters, they are putting out powers well over 1000w, and sustaining 400w+. Most normal cyclists aren't. Not even close. In their bunched sprints, slipping a foot from a pedal could lead to a big crash. Less of an issue for non racing cyclists...

Only maybe 20 out of about 200 riders are involved in the sprint. Why do the other 180 use them?


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Noone has actually given anything other than personal anecdata about what the advantages are of being clipped in, esp for normal riders.


It isnt the sort of topic that seems to have attracted much in the way of research funding  ;)

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Rock up to my average summer sunday club A group ride. Stick with us for 60 miles @ 20mph av. and then you can tell us all about what our Sunday 100k is like.
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The idea of doing 30kph for 100k as part of a group does not appeal, so I'll pass. But thanks for the invite. If you're ever in the Netherlands let me know, I'll take you for a ride, tho unless there's a substantial tail wind, it won't be at 30kph...

Thankyou. Get ready for a surprise visit!  :P The only time I've ridden in the Netherlands was from Naarden-Bussem to somewhere with a castle. No toeclips or SPDs

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #71 on: November 19, 2020, 08:13:26 pm »
Noone has actually given anything other than personal anecdata about what the advantages are of being clipped in, esp for normal riders.

What else were you expecting?
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Zed43

  • prefers UK hills over Dutch mountains
Re: What pedals?
« Reply #72 on: November 19, 2020, 08:19:32 pm »
I do seem to remember that when I first started riding SPD my average cadence went up a little, and it was easier to do 105-110rpm (though that high is really only with a tailwind, when running out of gears).

Ever since a bike fit placed the cleats all the way to the back (well, mid-foot) of the shoes and lowered the saddle such that my feet were no longer "heel up" on the pedals I never had pain in my Achilles again, even on long and/or multi day rides.

In winter the SPD pedals and cleats appear to act as massive heatsinks, even with otherwise toasty Northwave Arctic shoes. Maybe I should get myself a pair of these boats and use mountaineering boots  :) (then again, global warming; temperatures are still in double digits over here...)

Re: What pedals?
« Reply #73 on: November 19, 2020, 08:20:25 pm »

What made you get the pedals with toe straps in the first place?

folk with clips and straps were faster than I was, and I found that in certain situations there was an obvious difference in performance. That mostly went away when I got clips and straps too.


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What counts as trying too hard?

Probably easier to define what constitutes not doing that, hence my choice of words.

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So the question about whether someone should try being clipped in or not; of course they should....

Insisting that pedal retention is critical, that you can't perform without it, that it's necessary to be a keen cyclist, to be a real cyclist, to perform at a high level. I believe that this is not founded on a strong body of evidence. I believe that we should not be pushing people to pedal retention just because that's what we've always done.

I not noone has been posting strong scientific evidence in favour of pedal retention. The best anyone has come up with is "that's what the pros do".

I appreciate that I'm an idiot, I appreciate I'm not a real cyclist, and that my opinion is of no value. I just felt someone should point out that maybe we shouldn't push everyone to clipping in. It's not for everybody.

It's OK, I'll go back to riding my bike and asking about failure modes of esoteric bits of kit, I have a race to train for.
J
When you have quite finished putting words in other people's mouths.... ::-)

Evidence?  If you are not strapped in pretty bloody tight at times you get beat by folk that are, even if you manage to stay on the bike. 

You can ride a long way quite fast with just 200W or so. But strong riders are putting out three times that amount for a few minutes and six times that amount for shorter times than that; kind of tricky if you are not strapped in.  Not everyone rides like that (or even can do) but it is critical in many racing situations and very useful at other times too. For example it is difficult to (interval) train properly if you can't put out that amount of power, and even being able to get a shift on in traffic when the need arises is not something that should be discounted either.

Everyone's potential is limited by something and countless riders find that it can be their ability to push hard on the pedals if/when they are not strapped in.  Hence most keen cyclists are strapped in.

As I said before if you are a keen rider you should try it.  No-one is forcing you to stick with it or not.

cheers



Re: What pedals?
« Reply #74 on: November 19, 2020, 08:29:01 pm »
There was a thread last year where someone asked what sort of gels people like and the answer was fig rolls.